BMW returning to F1?

[donskar]

Here in the US, BMW does not sell a 4 cylinder model. That fact would work against BMW returning to F1. BMW's market is made up of VERY intelligent people, who are very much into cars. Sticking a BMW badge on soemthing does NOT impress them. SOURCE: My experience as a BMW salesman.

[marcush.]

Why would Mercedes first buy into Mclaren only to sell the stakes later on?
The plan was clearly to get a handle on Mclaren as it is really a value .They even used Mclaren cars to build Mercedes cars in a time when AMG was already their premium+ facility....
They clearly were unimpressed with Ron ´s plans to enter the car market as Mclaren and the product does not fit the agenda of Merc-see how SLS came along..
the Mp4-12 could be seen as a very dynamic pinnacle of the BMW portfolio -a lot more sophisticated than the M1 ever was.
I see a lot of potential there .And efficient dynamics-I think that car is the perfect match in BMWs sense.

[xpensive]

I agree marcush, there's already a McLaren-BMW history, is it not?

[Just_a_fan]

Here in the US, BMW does not sell a 4 cylinder model. That fact would work against BMW returning to F1. BMW's market is made up of VERY intelligent people, who are very much into cars. Sticking a BMW badge on soemthing does NOT impress them. SOURCE: My experience as a BMW salesman.

Perhaps so in the US but in Europe (and It'd guess further east too) the BMW badge is enough to sell the car. BMW make much of their "ultimate driving machine" tag line but they sell a huge number of bottom-rung stuff in the UK. Indeed, the 3-series outsells the Ford Mondeo these days. People are paying the premium for the badge - there's precious little driving pleasure to be had sitting in a low-spec BMW rather than the higher-spec Ford in the next lane of the traffic jam commute...

BMW is down-sizing its engine range in Europe. Expect to see the same thing happen in the US as fuel prices continue their inexorable rise - even the US will have to pay real money for petrol soon. Hint: in the UK we're paying the equivalent of well over $10/gallon (sure a big bit of that is tax but oil prices are only going to be going one way long-term). Factor that sort of price in to the equation and the US will be embracing small efficient engines in the next few years...

[Just_a_fan]

I don't see McLaren tying up with BMW. McLaren have started to build their own engines now so they'll want to be able to link the F1 racing pedigree with the road cars. No marketing advantage for McLaren in having BMW engines in the back of the F1 car and their own in the road cars.

I think McLaren will design a road car engine which is twin-turbo 3.2 litre V8 which they can then market as a pair of F1 1.6 turbo blocks siamesed together. Something like that anyway.
We know they're planning a portfolio of 3 road cars so a (911-rival car) 3.2L V8 sits nicely below the current (458-rival car) 3.8L V8 with perhaps a 4.2L V8/V10 (or even a V12?) above for the (Lambo-rival) hypercar. Actually, maybe even a 1.6 turbo road car engine for the "cheaper" sports car? Can't see them wanting anyone's name on those engines other than their own...

I could see BMW coming back to F1 as an engine supplier because that could be a good marketing tool - they have small capacity road car engines already and even the M-cars are down sizing their engines/cylinder counts. I could see a RedBull-BMW link.

[marcush.]

honestly -is Mclaren a rival to lambo ,Porsche or Ferrari? In my book these have to fear the abilities of the product more than the other ways round.Mclaren is a well known marque and as EXP stated it is a marketing dream really ..especially if in the context of BMW..
let´s see

[beelsebob]

honestly -is Mclaren a rival to lambo ,Porsche or Ferrari? In my book these have to fear the abilities of the product more than the other ways round.Mclaren is a well known marque and as EXP stated it is a marketing dream really ..especially if in the context of BMW..
let´s see

I'm sorry, was that english? I really can't figure out what you were trying to say.

[HampusA]

Why would Mercedes first buy into Mclaren only to sell the stakes later on?
The plan was clearly to get a handle on Mclaren as it is really a value .They even used Mclaren cars to build Mercedes cars in a time when AMG was already their premium+ facility....
They clearly were unimpressed with Ron ´s plans to enter the car market as Mclaren and the product does not fit the agenda of Merc-see how SLS came along..
the Mp4-12 could be seen as a very dynamic pinnacle of the BMW portfolio -a lot more sophisticated than the M1 ever was.
I see a lot of potential there .And efficient dynamics-I think that car is the perfect match in BMWs sense.

To even call the SLR a Mclaren is embarrasing and showed that Mclaren really did not have anything to say there, they basically used their name so if anything, i think Ron was the one pissed off in the end.

That car was so far away from what Mclaren stands for it´s crazy.
The Mclaren F1 and the MP4 are cars purely made by Mclaren (except for engines and maybe gearbox of course)

Ron had already put out the best supercar ever produced, so Mercedes i think always knew in the back of their head that Ron would go that route again.

You mean if BMW had produced the engine in the MP4 aswell? Yea i think so to, to me BMW is the king of engines, you can say Ferrari or Honda but overall BMW is the best engine maker of all.

Yea BMW i8 will be the first "new" supercar that will once again lead the technology or development while all the other manufacturers stands there and try to hang along.
An example is their new electric car coming soon with a carbon monocoque that will be mass produced aswell as more carbon fiber that will be more mainstream in the future.

The other cars to have monocoque´s in carbon is Lexus LF-A, Enzo, MP4 12-C, new Murcielago etc so it´s a pretty big thing for sure.

[HampusA]

I don't see McLaren tying up with BMW. McLaren have started to build their own engines now so they'll want to be able to link the F1 racing pedigree with the road cars. No marketing advantage for McLaren in having BMW engines in the back of the F1 car and their own in the road cars.

I think McLaren will design a road car engine which is twin-turbo 3.2 litre V8 which they can then market as a pair of F1 1.6 turbo blocks siamesed together. Something like that anyway.
We know they're planning a portfolio of 3 road cars so a (911-rival car) 3.2L V8 sits nicely below the current (458-rival car) 3.8L V8 with perhaps a 4.2L V8/V10 (or even a V12?) above for the (Lambo-rival) hypercar. Actually, maybe even a 1.6 turbo road car engine for the "cheaper" sports car? Can't see them wanting anyone's name on those engines other than their own...

I could see BMW coming back to F1 as an engine supplier because that could be a good marketing tool - they have small capacity road car engines already and even the M-cars are down sizing their engines/cylinder counts. I could see a RedBull-BMW link.

How are they supposed to link their F1 programme with their road cars when neither engine is built by Mclaren?

I think as partnership with BMW can only be benefitial, They have history (not a bad one aswell)
BMW has the credentials, they are certified engine builders with alot of respect from other manufacturers so i can´t see anything bad in it at all.

But i can see Mclaren´s point of view in building their own engines and maybe even F1 engines in the future.

[HampusA]

Here in the US, BMW does not sell a 4 cylinder model. That fact would work against BMW returning to F1. BMW's market is made up of VERY intelligent people, who are very much into cars. Sticking a BMW badge on soemthing does NOT impress them. SOURCE: My experience as a BMW salesman.

Salesman in America i presume?

America is a totally different country then the rest of the world with totally different needs.

4-cylinders is something BMW has done for along time. M3 E30 for example. The most succesful touring car of them all so 4-cylinders is not a problem for them.

Besides, BMW is a company who wants to make money.

Mclaren F1 - BMW engine
Weismann - BMW engine (M3-M5 engines)

And then some. If you call them up and they feel it´s realistic then they will get you an engine. They decide if your cars are worthy of a BMW engine.

They might not make the specified weight but as we know, they make up for it in the horsepower department

[HampusA]

honestly -is Mclaren a rival to lambo ,Porsche or Ferrari? In my book these have to fear the abilities of the product more than the other ways round.Mclaren is a well known marque and as EXP stated it is a marketing dream really ..especially if in the context of BMW..
let´s see

Sorry for being such a post whore here but i think nobody is underestimating Mclaren or what they can do.

Mclaren wont be a threat to Ferrari in any way though. I think it´s Porsche that should be worried but Porsche still has an edge because their cars are "cheap".

Ferrari 458 Italia vs MP4 for example.
The MP4 spanks the livin crap out of a 458 in all departments except one, soul, aliveness etc.
Why? the car is to competent which makes the cars soul go away, almost sterile in a way. But it´s a brilliant car down to the bolts, but you can´t touch Ferrari when it comes to passion, soul and just that magic they manage to incorporate into their cars.

[beelsebob]

honestly -is Mclaren a rival to lambo ,Porsche or Ferrari? In my book these have to fear the abilities of the product more than the other ways round.Mclaren is a well known marque and as EXP stated it is a marketing dream really ..especially if in the context of BMW..
let´s see

Sorry for being such a post whore here but i think nobody is underestimating Mclaren or what they can do.

Mclaren wont be a threat to Ferrari in any way though. I think it´s Porsche that should be worried but Porsche still has an edge because their cars are "cheap".

Ferrari 458 Italia vs MP4 for example.
The MP4 spanks the livin crap out of a 458 in all departments except one, soul, aliveness etc.
Why? the car is to competent which makes the cars soul go away, almost sterile in a way. But it´s a brilliant car down to the bolts, but you can´t touch Ferrari when it comes to passion, soul and just that magic they manage to incorporate into their cars.

Unfortunately, double blind testing will never tell us this, but I think what you're describing has more to do with a pretty prancing horse badge on the front and placebo than anything else. While cars absolutely can talk to you, and feel great to drive, and respond, and play with you, etc, to say that no McLaren will ever do this to the extent that any ferrari does is just plain bull.

[HampusA]

honestly -is Mclaren a rival to lambo ,Porsche or Ferrari? In my book these have to fear the abilities of the product more than the other ways round.Mclaren is a well known marque and as EXP stated it is a marketing dream really ..especially if in the context of BMW..
let´s see

Sorry for being such a post whore here but i think nobody is underestimating Mclaren or what they can do.

Mclaren wont be a threat to Ferrari in any way though. I think it´s Porsche that should be worried but Porsche still has an edge because their cars are "cheap".

Ferrari 458 Italia vs MP4 for example.
The MP4 spanks the livin crap out of a 458 in all departments except one, soul, aliveness etc.
Why? the car is to competent which makes the cars soul go away, almost sterile in a way. But it´s a brilliant car down to the bolts, but you can´t touch Ferrari when it comes to passion, soul and just that magic they manage to incorporate into their cars.

Unfortunately, double blind testing will never tell us this, but I think what you're describing has more to do with a pretty prancing horse badge on the front and placebo than anything else. While cars absolutely can talk to you, and feel great to drive, and respond, and play with you, etc, to say that no McLaren will ever do this to the extent that any ferrari does is just plain bull.

I beg to differ. For instance, the engine. 9.000rpm V8, 125hp per litre vs a turbocharged engine will never really give the same tingly feeling.

Just check all the reviews on the cars. Mclaren´s car is superior but it´s "dead" no soul because it´s so competent.

The Ferrari still has that edge, that rawness.

I couldn´t care less what badge is on the front of the car. Ferrari has always made these types of cars, Mclaren has built one and that wasn´t a Mclaren engine in that one.

Same with Porsche, arguably the best drivers cars in the world but still doesn´t have that "soul" like a 458 has or 430 scuderia. To sterile which makes the car dead.

Still an awsome car though.

[alelanza]

The MP4 spanks the livin crap out of a 458 in all departments except one, soul, aliveness etc.

When/where did you test drive the mp4-12c?

[Just_a_fan]

How are they supposed to link their F1 programme with their road cars when neither engine is built by Mclaren?

The current F1 engine isn't theirs of course but in 2013 they might have their own - that's the point. The -12C's engine is designed by McLaren even if they got someone else to cast it and put the bits together. Expect that to chnage in the future too IMO.

I think as partnership with BMW can only be benefitial, They have history (not a bad one aswell)
BMW has the credentials, they are certified engine builders with alot of respect from other manufacturers so i can´t see anything bad in it at all.

It's only good for BMW if anyone. McLaren are aiming to be a serious manufacturer in their own right. Being linked with a competitor from a lower sector isn't good for them.

But i can see Mclaren´s point of view in building their own engines and maybe even F1 engines in the future.

That was rather my point - from 2013 the opportunity will exist and they are more likely than any other team to be able to carry it through.