Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

[Big Tea]

I would expect all drivers in all teams to be told that when they (the team) see it necessary they (the driver) will be asked to play a supporting role.
At the start of the year no one really knows how things are going to turn out, and an expected easy 1-2 at most races could easily become a hard fought win with one driver sacrificing for undercut or long strategy.

I suspect the teams will dress it up with words more likeable to the drivers, but it should be there.

[Just_a_fan]

Agreed. Mercedes will give each driver equal chance until one begins to obviously dominate. Being ahead by a few points isn't "dominating". Look at this season - after 4 races, Bottas and Hamilton were 2 wins apiece. Then Bottas didn't see the top step for 12 races where Hamilton won 4 on the bounce plus 3 others in that period. Bottas started the season strongly and is finishing it well too, but just let Hamilton get away from him during the mid season. The need to be "on it" for 20 races in a row is why Rosberg cut and ran when he got his title. It's very difficult to do, and what marks out the likes of Hamilton, Alonso, Schumacher etc., from the very good and the merely good drivers. Rosberg knew he couldn't do it again. I'm not sure Bottas can do it once. He needs to do it next year, however, if he wants his career to move forward. Otherwise he'll just be another well paid F1 driver with some wins to his name. Next year is Bottas's make-or-break year, ISTM.

[Manoah2u]

there is no way they'll let Hamilton MISS on this LEGENDARY 7th title, which is only in Mercedes own BEST INTEREST,
by being nice and friendly to poor ol' panzy nr2 driver Bottas.

If Bottas is driving and performing better, of course they will. What do you expect them to do? Sabotage his car? Beg him to drive slower?

first sentance, pretty unimaginable. Bottas had a good start in 2019, but that's all there was.
By all means, i don't think there's any doubt that Lewis is a far better driver than Bottas.
We're not talking about Raikkonen here, or Hakkinen. Bottas at best is just a bit up from Kovalainen.
Bottas is calmer and less hotheaded than Rosberg which is why he stays out of trouble much more,
but apart from occasionally strong performances, even his strong performances aren't close to that of Lewis,
and far from better.

Thing is, Bottas hasn't shown in a 'bunch' of seasons that he's capable to perform on Lewis level.
Which simply means, he is not as good as lewis, and then, why would you favour a driver that is lesser than
the other?

They don't need to sabotage anything, Bottas simply isn't on Lewis level.

And as i've mentioned, something the team HAS done more than once this season, if Bottas is ahead,
simply shuffle around the positions through pitstop tactics and claim the tactic turned out different than expected.

What you are suggesting is not what Mercedes stands for.

It's literally what they did this year, just not by the margin you can expect for 2020.

The amount of criticism they’d get, would be beyond the benefit of beating a drivers record.

I'll repeat. It happened this year. They got and will get away with it.
They 'sabotaged' Lewis in 2016 with transferring all his hard work and personal team towards Nico,
and gave Lewis sore Rosberg 'team'. Rosberg more than once drove into Lewis reminicsent of Schumacher moves,
and the team ignored it. Forgotten those 'internal struggles' and the reminder of Lewis that people are going to
be shocked if/when he writes a book on what happened those years/season at Mercedes?
Remember how sore and salty that relation STILL is? Go and look at some instagram posts about both drivers.
Did they get criticised for that?

Yep, but all was forgotten and forgiven fast. A German in a german team got the title.

So perhaps if it hasn't doomed on you yet:

Mercedes has SHOWN it stands for exactly like that in deeds, not in words.
Mercedes has HAD that critisism in the past, they couldn't be bothered.
Mercedes knows Bottas will play ball for the lap dog he is and knows he is.
Mercedes has asked Bottas many times to make room for Lewis.
Mercedes has tricked ('pulled a leg on') Bottas more than once through 'pitstop tactics'.

Mercedes has proven they won't refrain from that, so there's no base to believe they wouldn't for such a memorable event coming 2020, again, especially with Toto having mentioned it's by no means certain they'll stay in F1 after 2020.
(As a works team that is).

And i'll repeat the importance for Mercedes to have Lewis grab that 7th (2020) title:
They will go down in history as the team that brought 7 WCC and WDC titles in a row
in the entire 2014+ V6 period.
They will grant Hamilton, their star driver, legendary status by handing out Hamilton
his 7th title, as much as the legendary Schumacher managed to achieve, and Lewis
has already reached and beaten certain landmarks that Schumi set.
Again, right now, Lewis is synonym for Mercedes F1, and vise versa.
Bottas is by no means at all.

Now imagine, just imagine, the following.

That idea that Mercedes would favour Bottas for whatever reason.

Lewis will see in the ultimate stretch of this dominant era with Mercedes in F1,
at the end of his Mercedes F1 contract, with some lingering possibilities that Lewis has interest in Ferrari,
that that very team, to which Lewis has been loyal for so long, kick him in the groin,
by handing over the WDC title to mediocre Bottas (at best).
It will be sore because there's simply no way Bottas is able to beat Hamilton 1 on 1.

Everybody will see Lewis not make that 7th title with Mercedes.
Hamilton will be sore, and since his contract with Merc is running out and there's a question mark
on Mercedes' ambitions in F1 and winning potential as of 2021 anyway,
leave to Ferrari because he was one-upped.

Then, in 2021, in a (just imagine) dominant Ferrari, Lewis beats everybody and grabs his 7th title with FERRARI.

everybody will remember he managed to become on Schumacher's level by being in the SAME team as the legendary german was: Ferrari. It will really, really negatively impact anything Merc and leave a sore after taste. Then imagine he will BEAT Schumacher's WDC record by grabbing his 8th one with Ferrari.
He'll end his career with Ferrari and the tail end of his records with Ferrari not Mercedes.

Instead then, if Mercedes decides to be commercially smart,
they'll very much KNOW that if Hamilton grabs the title in 2020,
everybody will, first of all, remember just that. He BEAT Ferrari.

Then, with no sore taste, and not getting one upped as in the other scenario,
despite having ideas of moving to Ferrari, Lewis decides to STAY with Mercedes,
and grab his 8th title with Mercedes, thus beating the Schumacher and Ferrari combo.

Honestly, it's as commercially wise and sound as it gets, and Merc is smart enough.
There's no way they won't be thinking about putting all their eggs in Lewis basket.

especially with the final ingredient: competition.
Untill this season, there really was little competition from other teams.
Ferrari has proven a player after the summer break (cheating or not), but not enough.
chances are much bigger that for 2020, both Verstappen-RBR Honda and Leclerc-Ferrari
will pose a much greater threat for the WCC and WDC title.

So why on earth chance all of that by favouring a mediocre Bottas over an already legendary 6-time WDC?

[Phil]

Re: Rosberg and Lewis in 2016, it’s rather well documented and known, what led to the change of staff. There was no hidden plan to “make Rosberg champion” - they did it to stop the animosity growing between the two teams, that was leading to friction, in the end, hampering themselves.

You may not like it, i certainly didnt back in 2016, but from a teams perspective, it was absolutely the right thing to do. In the end, Hamilton didnt lose due to staff changes, he lost due to his bad starts and a bit of bad luck (Malaysia).

As for the rest of your post - i really fail to see what Mercedes did this year to Bottas and what was unfair about anything. Bottas had that happen to him, what his own driving and performing put him into. If he didnt want to be used as a pawn for the best possible team result, he simply has/had to perform better. There is no injustice at all.

Truth of the matter is, Bottas has had equal opportunity at Mercedes to win races and championships, just as Rosberg did before him. It’s up to him to find a new level and be the driver to beat. If he is that driver, i have no doubt that Mercedes will support him in the way you believe they are supporting Lewis.

The only problem Bottas faces, is that he probably just not up to it, over the course of an entire season. That doesnt mean he has been signed with anything less than equal opportunity.

Same applies to Ferrari or any other team. Dont want to be the pawn? The solution is simple: be the driver to beat. That is exactly what Charles has done in order to establish himself as perhaps the lead driver. There is nothing in the contract, it’s all there to play for, even for Vettel.

People advocating number 1s and number2s should really wrap their head around why a multi billion corporation would limit themselves by contract to anything that is not to their direct benefit. Last i checked, drivers are hired and paid by their teams, not the other way around.

[3jawchuck]

My (albeit limited) experience of German engineering firms is that they often like to rotate staff. I've worked for a German particle board company and they would often move you around (if you were willing) between teams, projects and facilities. The justification is to enable people to constantly grow and keep their motivation and interest high. I wonder if that also played a role in the Rosberg/Hamilton team shift?

[Jolle]

My (albeit limited) experience of German engineering firms is that they often like to rotate staff. I've worked for a German particle board company and they would often move you around (if you were willing) between teams, projects and facilities. The justification is to enable people to constantly grow and keep their motivation and interest high. I wonder if that also played a role in the Rosberg/Hamilton team shift?

It's a very good methode to keep complacency out of teams, but, Mercedes GP is an English company with a Austrian on the helm and a British/Italian heads of departments. Not much German knowledge there. Plus, if that was the reason, it would of worked a lot better to swap some positions within the teams or with the factory, not a driver swap.

I think it was more naive. Rosberg, after three years of losing to Hamilton probably was searching for answers and probably complaining that Lewis his team was one of the reasons he lost out. In an effort to be transparent and honest they switched teams.

I think that was a lesson for Wolff and Mercedes that if you have your star driver, a multiple WC, you should build your team around him instead of giving him an in-house fight.

[Phil]

It was said that teams were changed because there was growing animosity between them and it was dividing the team into two camps which is obviously unhealthy. Changing the staff obviously changed this, because it broke up the alliances.

I am fairly certain this was explained in quite detailed in “beyond the grid with Toto Wolff”. Not sure though.



It’s not all there, but at 10:51 gives a lot of insight into the perspective of a team-boss / management and the challenges they face.

[GPR-A]

It was said that teams were changed because there was growing animosity between them and it was dividing the team into two camps which is obviously unhealthy. Changing the staff obviously changed this, because it broke up the alliances.

I am fairly certain this was explained in quite detailed in “beyond the grid with Toto Wolff”. Not sure though.

https://youtu.be/KMGSLor3NQQ

It’s not all there, but at 10:51 gives a lot of insight into the perspective of a team-boss / management and the challenges they face.

While the decision was done in the larger interest of the team to ensure the information is not being hidden and transparency is maintained, it did affect one driver more than the other. The members of Lewis' garage, moved into Nico's and implemented a lot of changes they learned while working with Lewis, who had dominated the 2015 season and quite naturally he and his team had made a headway in performance. When those guys moved over, the knowledge was then put to good use on Nico's car, whereas the people who worked on Nico's car in 2015, came to Lewis' side of the garage without any of that information and needed to learn a whole lot.

I always wonder what would have happened if Ferrari and/or Red Bull would have managed to come out with equally competitive cars for 2016! Would Mercedes have regretted that decision to switch staff which would have diffused the competency of one driver, who had won two championships for them and had to compete with equally good cars from competition. There will never be an answer to that question. That decision worked because there was no competition to the team.

[Phil]

I never said there wasnt a benefit. I said it wasnt changed to give one driver an advantage.

If there was or wasnt, is difficult to prove. I also dont quite believe that some people moved over and had “data” they didnt have before. Mercedes always had a very open mentality, as i’m sure they do now too.

I’ll say it again: lewis didnt lose the 2016 champioship because of staff changes - he lost it because he more often then not bottled his starts and a bit of luck that worked against him.

And i also do not believe that it is good to build a team around a driver. You do that, and team morale wont be good and you will also take away the need for your driver to push to the absolute limit. A great driver will not need that anyway.

The fact that Hamilton hasnt had this in his career is probably one of the reasons why he is (still) that good.

[izzy]

I never said there wasnt a benefit. I said it wasnt changed to give one driver an advantage.

If there was or wasnt, is difficult to prove. I also dont quite believe that some people moved over and had “data” they didnt have before. Mercedes always had a very open mentality, as i’m sure they do now too.

I’ll say it again: lewis didnt lose the 2016 champioship because of staff changes - he lost it because he more often then not bottled his starts and a bit of luck that worked against him.

I think the mechanics being moved had an undermining effect, and it was a feeble copout, what they needed to do was get rid of a driver to fix the bad atmosphere.

BTW Lewis' 2016 car problems were a lot more that just the blowup: Two ERS failures, in China Q1 and Sochi Q3, a faulty engine mode in Baku, new PU=back of grid in Spa, a hydraulics fault spoilt FP2 in Singapore, then the blown engine in lead in Sepang. He had two really bad starts to Rosberg's one, and they weren't bottled they were because FIA changed the rules for clutch operation over the winter and Mercedes hadn't done a full redesign

But the whole Rosberg saga was "How Not To Manage Two Drivers". Toto admitted afterwards, after Rosberg texted his resignation, that Rosberg was "the vicious one". They knew he cheated in Bahrain and Monaco 2014, and Spa, but just kept him anyway. It's been the same with Ferrari, when they let Charles sneak the win in Monza by not doing his tow and then 'forgave' him for getting exactly what he wanted! so quelle surprise Seb's been getting his own back. This kind of thing just needs to get started then with F1 drivers it naturally escalates. Same with Seb and "Come on Seb" as a typical feeble copout, after they let Mark get away with Brazil the previous year and then on it goes forever.

So Valtteri is gold dust, i think fast drivers with his temperament are just as rare and valuable as the alphas. I don't understand why Toto's only given him 1 year again, if i was Ferrari i'd have signed him for 2022 already!

[Phil]

I may have understated Lewis’s luck to some extend to avoid the driver vs driver discussions.

Truthfully, the end of the 2016 season was hard to swallow, but i’ve made peace with it. And looking back at it a bit more objectively, i have found admiration for Nico for being the fierce contender he was.

I also think Lewis learned a great deal from those years partnering Rosberg and that and other experiences has made him better for it. Thus why i am no longer the opinion that “star drivers” should be nurtured and built around. It undermines their achievement and ultimately does more damage to the team and the driver himself.

[nzjrs]

I may have understated Lewis’s luck to some extend to avoid the driver vs driver discussions.

Truthfully, the end of the 2016 season was hard to swallow, but i’ve made peace with it. And looking back at it a bit more objectively, i have found admiration for Nico for being the fierce contender he was.

I also think Lewis learned a great deal from those years partnering Rosberg and that and other experiences has made him better for it. Thus why i am no longer the opinion that “star drivers” should be nurtured and built around. It undermines their achievement and ultimately does more damage to the team and the driver himself.

Very well said. Im also a fan of Vettel's mantra of "you aren't as good as they [the public] say you are when you are winning, and as bad as they say you are when you are losing"

Full credit to Rosberg for beating Hamilton in the same car, and I'm sure neither driver was as dirty or clean as people think them to be.

[Jambier]

So....

2020 will be the silliest season in F1 doesn't it ?

- We know that Ferrari will be here in 2021 with Leclerc
- Will Vettel retire ?
- We know that Hamilton... is waiting Mercedes and Wolff decision.
- If Mercedes retires, and Wolff goes to Liberty, what then ?
- We know that Honda will be here in 2021, but RB have to win to keep them and to keep Verstappen
- We know that both Renault and Honda are asking for engine freeze to stay

I think it will be very intersting, 2020 and 2021 for silly season, 2021 for sport season.

For me:

- It make sense that Mercedes retire. I 've said it several month ago, people were laughing back then
- Hamilton to Ferrari ? It should be interesting but I can't see it work, I don't know why, I prefer to see him came back at McLaren Mercedes for 2021
- I think if Mercedes leave, FIA would have to agree with Honda and Renault engine freeze, hence they will stay
- Vettel will retire
- Renault have no boss right now (the brand), so let's wait for the new one

[GPR-A]

Mercedes is NOT going away from F1 as a racing team. All this drama of leaving, is just to get a bigger pie in the upcoming Concorde Agreement, along with a bigger say on the Liberty table. Ferrari and McLaren have got a bigger say than the 6 time double champions and they know it would be a huge blow to F1 if they leave and Liberty can't afford to lose a marquee like Mercedes.

Here is a report from not so long ago!

https://www.grandprix247.com/2019/06/01 ... east-2025/

Writing for Corriere dello Sport, Fulvio Solms reports: “Mercedes will stay in F1 beyond the 2020 and until at least 2025. The decision was taken by the new president of Daimler AG, Ola Källenius, based on the programs drawn up by his predecessor Dieter Zetsche, who he took over from on May 22nd.”

“The German team will, therefore, not embark on a Le Mans program, and will continue in Formula 1 while embarking on a Formula E venture. Their commitment will now have a direct impact on commercial, technical and sports agreements negotiations for 2021. The current Concorde Agreement runs out at the end of 2020.”

From a business perspective, no one will want to leave a profit making, highly flourishing business prospect.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith ... 717eb51ddb

[Wass85]

It was said that teams were changed because there was growing animosity between them and it was dividing the team into two camps which is obviously unhealthy. Changing the staff obviously changed this, because it broke up the alliances.

I am fairly certain this was explained in quite detailed in “beyond the grid with Toto Wolff”. Not sure though.

https://youtu.be/KMGSLor3NQQ

It’s not all there, but at 10:51 gives a lot of insight into the perspective of a team-boss / management and the challenges they face.

While the decision was done in the larger interest of the team to ensure the information is not being hidden and transparency is maintained, it did affect one driver more than the other. The members of Lewis' garage, moved into Nico's and implemented a lot of changes they learned while working with Lewis, who had dominated the 2015 season and quite naturally he and his team had made a headway in performance. When those guys moved over, the knowledge was then put to good use on Nico's car, whereas the people who worked on Nico's car in 2015, came to Lewis' side of the garage without any of that information and needed to learn a whole lot.

I always wonder what would have happened if Ferrari and/or Red Bull would have managed to come out with equally competitive cars for 2016! Would Mercedes have regretted that decision to switch staff which would have diffused the competency of one driver, who had won two championships for them and had to compete with equally good cars from competition. There will never be an answer to that question. That decision worked because there was no competition to the team.

Performance wise Hamilton dominated Rosberg just as much in 2016 as the other years.

I suppose race starts are part of that "performance" but Lewis kept insisting it wasn't down to him.

Teams do and should share info between teammates as it helps the team in the end.