2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[LM10]

As I added after re-editing the previous messages after you read it: if they are "excited" (as they claim) when set to end up being third best for the fourth time in five years, well, in my humble opinion they are much more suited to work for Alpine then for Ferrari (with the given respect for Alpine). I hope (and believe) they are not that excited. So Ferrari please spare us that annoying narrative.

I have no idea how you got there from Clear answering a question about Vasseur by saying the culture in the team is different and people are taking more risk and learning from it. Ever since Todt and Brawn left, this blame culture was brought back to Ferrari by Montezemolo and stayed there until Elkann understood that Vigna and Binotto are clueless about building a good team. A well known toxic trait that kept a lot of people out of Maranello, including Newey about 10 years ago.

By looking at AmateurDriver’s posts one can see where exactly the roots of the blame culture lie - it’s the Tifosi themselves. The pressure from outside (fans and media) which are really unique in case of Ferrari, is what is the starting point of a long chain consisting of blame, unrealistic goals, fast success no matter the cost and blame again. I really don’t know another team where it’s to this extent, not even close. I also don’t know another team thread turning into torture to read when Ferrari does not get a 1-2.

[CouncilorIrissa]

I also don’t know another team thread turning into torture to read when Ferrari does not get a 1-2.

Wait until you see the 2025 edition of this thread, this is going to be nuclear disaster levels of hysteria.

[bananapeel23]

I am just saying give us results first, then we will be delighted to hear journalists talking at length about the superbe managing skills of Fred Vasseur (to make things clear: a professionals I like and respect to a huge extent) and the blindingly brilliant ideas that led Ferrari to success. Bit give us wins first. We have had enough of declarations of intents.

Actually there's both very good results, great consistency and execution and not just a win, but a 1-2 finish in Australia. Overall the best season since 2017 already and will end up better than 2017 overall, after an utter disaster of last year

I mean I'm super optimistic and I absolutely think Ferrari is headed the right way, but let's not pretend 2023 was an "utter disaster" so 2024 compares favourably. 2023 was at worst a disappointment, but it certainly was not a disaster. Ferrari was the only team other than Red Bull to win a race, got 7 pole positions, scored over 400 points and ended 3 points short of P2 in the constructors. They were also the only team to legitimately outpace Red Bull across a weekend where Red Bull didn't have major setup issues (Vegas). The car development also ended up being largely a success, which is far from a certainty with Ferrari.

It certainly wasn't a good year, but "utter disaster" is really pushing it, since they were (at worst) slightly better than their 2022 post-TD39 form. I'd say 2023 was about average for Ferrari post-2008. An utter disaster would be something like 2020 or 2014. Perhaps the operational failures of late 2017 would also qualify as an utter disaster.

[AmateurDriver]

As I added after re-editing the previous messages after you read it: if they are "excited" (as they claim) when set to end up being third best for the fourth time in five years, well, in my humble opinion they are much more suited to work for Alpine then for Ferrari (with the given respect for Alpine). I hope (and believe) they are not that excited. So Ferrari please spare us that annoying narrative.

I have no idea how you got there from Clear answering a question about Vasseur by saying the culture in the team is different and people are taking more risk and learning from it. Ever since Todt and Brawn left, this blame culture was brought back to Ferrari by Montezemolo and stayed there until Elkann understood that Vigna and Binotto are clueless about building a good team. A well known toxic trait that kept a lot of people out of Maranello, including Newey about 10 years ago.

By looking at AmateurDriver’s posts one can see where exactly the roots of the blame culture lie - it’s the Tifosi themselves. The pressure from outside (fans and media) which are really unique in case of Ferrari, is what is the starting point of a long chain consisting of blame, unrealistic goals, fast success no matter the cost and blame again. I really don’t know another team where it’s to this extent, not even close. I also don’t know another team thread turning into torture to read when Ferrari does not get a 1-2.

English not being my native language, I sincerely thought I had nevertheless explained my point quite clearly. But that's not the case indeed. I am asking for muting propaganda until results will speak volume. It's Ferrari itself that is increasing the pressure and creating expectations that it is never able to fullfil. Im saying, tell us what we have to Realistically expect, it will be easier to swallow disappointment. Don't pull our legs all the time.

[Vanja #66]

I mean I'm super optimistic and I absolutely think Ferrari is headed the right way, but let's not pretend 2023 was an "utter disaster" so 2024 compares favourably. 2023 was at worst a disappointment, but it certainly was not a disaster. Ferrari was the only team other than Red Bull to win a race, got 7 pole positions, scored over 400 points and ended 3 points short of P2 in the constructors. They were also the only team to legitimately outpace Red Bull across a weekend where Red Bull didn't have major setup issues (Vegas). The car development also ended up being largely a success, which is far from a certainty with Ferrari.

It certainly wasn't a good year, but "utter disaster" is really pushing it, since they were (at worst) slightly better than their 2022 post-TD39 form. I'd say 2023 was about average for Ferrari post-2008. An utter disaster would be something like 2020 or 2014. Perhaps the operational failures of late 2017 would also qualify as an utter disaster.

Season started with huge self-imposed expectations, beginning with live roll out with fans in Fiorano. They know the car wasn't born well both suspension and aero wise, but had to keep the poker face on. DNF for Leclerc and penalties next race. Another amateur handling of Q3 by Xavi and Sainz being a hot head in Australia. Cold shower in Baku race and false hope dispelled in Miami. Another Q3 error by Xavi costing Lecler P3 on grid, while Sainz had another spin in Monaco. Shambles in Barcelona to top off first 7 races. After that it was up and down entire season, operational errors by Leclerc's garage and a few more driver errors by Sainz. Lucky, but deserved win in Singapore with RB failing to find the right setup. The only decent race on pace on both tyres where there was true pressure from behind (unlike Singspore) was AD.

[Alex_Z]

I also don’t know another team thread turning into torture to read when Ferrari does not get a 1-2.

Wait until you see the 2025 edition of this thread, this is going to be nuclear holocaust levels of hysteria.

Can you not make light of the holocaust please? Thanks.

[Space-heat]

I mean I'm super optimistic and I absolutely think Ferrari is headed the right way, but let's not pretend 2023 was an "utter disaster" so 2024 compares favourably. 2023 was at worst a disappointment, but it certainly was not a disaster. Ferrari was the only team other than Red Bull to win a race, got 7 pole positions, scored over 400 points and ended 3 points short of P2 in the constructors. They were also the only team to legitimately outpace Red Bull across a weekend where Red Bull didn't have major setup issues (Vegas). The car development also ended up being largely a success, which is far from a certainty with Ferrari.

It certainly wasn't a good year, but "utter disaster" is really pushing it, since they were (at worst) slightly better than their 2022 post-TD39 form. I'd say 2023 was about average for Ferrari post-2008. An utter disaster would be something like 2020 or 2014. Perhaps the operational failures of late 2017 would also qualify as an utter disaster.

Season started with huge self-imposed expectations, beginning with live roll out with fans in Fiorano. They know the car wasn't born well both suspension and aero wise, but had to keep the poker face on. DNF for Leclerc and penalties next race. Another amateur handling of Q3 by Xavi and Sainz being a hot head in Australia. Cold shower in Baku race and false hope dispelled in Miami. Another Q3 error by Xavi costing Lecler P3 on grid, while Sainz had another spin in Monaco. Shambles in Barcelona to top off first 7 races. After that it was up and down entire season, operational errors by Leclerc's garage and a few more driver errors by Sainz. Lucky, but deserved win in Singapore with RB failing to find the right setup. The only decent race on pace on both tyres where there was true pressure from behind (unlike Singspore) was AD.

Vegas too, no?

I might be misremembering but Charles might have won without the sc.

[CouncilorIrissa]

Can you not make light of the holocaust please? Thanks.

That came out wrong on second read. I'll edit.

[ringo]

I will move into the Scuderia thread next season.
Hysteria to come indeed! The pressure will be off the team, as the blame will be concentrated to Hamilton.

As for 2023, that season was a good season. At worst bittersweet. The car was working well on many tracks. As said earlier 7 poles is front running car status. The Ferrari was the only consistent threat to redbull the whole season.
McLaren only became serious in Qatar sprint if I remember correctly.
Ferrari had strategic blunders as usual, but this was mostly in trying to fight tyre deg using desperation. Driver errors and bad luck accounts for the rest. But the season was not a Mercedes like disaster. Without a manhole cover, Ferrari would have been 2nd in the championship.

Also I have a bone to pick with the TD039. Why is everything wrong in Ferrari world being blamed on the technical directive?
Even without it, Ferrari would have finished the 2022 season just the same. It's impact is being overblown. There are no official or unofficial statements from the team blaming the directive for their downfall. It's mostly just here in F1 technical we see this theory.

[Seanspeed]

You're missing the point of my comment entirely.

The point is that even if the pace didn't worsen, it doesn't mean that the tyre temp statement is false. A sub-optimal temperature can still yield lap time improvement and consistent lap times over a stint due to fuel burnoff, but that doesn't mean the car wouldn't perform better if the tyres were perfect.

As the tread wears off across a stint, there is less rubber to absorb the energy. Essentially this means that you can't push as hard to warm the tyres during the end of a stint, because you overheat the tyre surface much more easily, since there simply isn't enough rubber to absorb all of the energy.

At some point it might just be worth accepting that your core temp is slightly too low, because pushing to bring it back up would cause the surface to overheat and lead to graining or blistering, which would cost you more race time overall. This would be made even worse if your car struggles to heat the tyres without pushing, especially if the track cools, meaning that you lose more of your precious tyre temperature to the road surface, forcing you to push even harder to bring the temp back up, leading to even more graining.

Your pace might be good, your lap times might keep improving and your deg may still remain fairly low. But fundamentally, you've still been forced to accept a compromise that might cost a tenth or two per lap compared to the reality where your tyre temp never dropped to begin with.

Again, I don't know if this is indeed the case with Leclerc, but as an explanation for the sudden change in relative pace compared to Norris, it does make quite a bit of sense and is certainly possible. His lap times remaining decent doesn't really disprove this theory, since we don't know how his pace would have been if he never went off. Like it is theoretically possible his pace would improve like Norris' did, it's possible it would have been roughly the same or maybe somewhere in between, we can't tell because we don't have access to the data.

If he lost pace because he went off, we could only really tell if we got access to the Ferrari data. For now we only have statements from people involved with Ferrari to use as reference, and they seem to say that him going off caused temperature issues. Since we can't conclusively disprove it, we should take their word for it, since it's the most authoritative source we have.

THERE WAS NO SUDDEN CHANGE RELATIVE TO NORRIS that wasn't explainable by Norris simply going faster.

Not Leclerc, not Verstappen, not Sainz, not anybody else did the same. If the mistake by Lerclerc was the thing that prevented him from doing the same, Sainz should have shown some magic improvement, but he didn't, either. Why did Leclerc still have Verstappen-matching pace, even when Verstappen was under threat and had every reason to push?

Come on now.

[jambuka]

Why is it from the last 7 races Ferrari bringing rear wing with higher load than the competition ?

[CaribouBread]

Why is it from the last 7 races Ferrari bringing rear wing with higher load than the competition ?

I have the feeling (not fact) that by now its not being conservative (like we believed in the first few races), but what the team believes to be a fundamental characteristic of the car. Rather than seeing it as a compromise, its just how the car prefers to be set up to get the teams' desired traits (perhaps high speed performances, tyre life etc etc)

[Vanja #66]

Vegas too, no?

I might be misremembering but Charles might have won without the sc.

I was making only bad points that were Ferrari-related. Vegas was down to Wolff playing dirty with Sainz penalty

[Cs98]

Wait until you see the 2025 edition of this thread, this is going to be nuclear disaster levels of hysteria.

I will move into the Scuderia thread next season.
Hysteria to come indeed! The pressure will be off the team, as the blame will be concentrated to Hamilton.

Introductions are in order

[Xyz22]

I will move into the Scuderia thread next season.
Hysteria to come indeed! The pressure will be off the team, as the blame will be concentrated to Hamilton.

As for 2023, that season was a good season. At worst bittersweet. The car was working well on many tracks. As said earlier 7 poles is front running car status. The Ferrari was the only consistent threat to redbull the whole season.
McLaren only became serious in Qatar sprint if I remember correctly.
Ferrari had strategic blunders as usual, but this was mostly in trying to fight tyre deg using desperation. Driver errors and bad luck accounts for the rest. But the season was not a Mercedes like disaster. Without a manhole cover, Ferrari would have been 2nd in the championship.

Also I have a bone to pick with the TD039. Why is everything wrong in Ferrari world being blamed on the technical directive?
Even without it, Ferrari would have finished the 2022 season just the same. It's impact is being overblown. There are no official or unofficial statements from the team blaming the directive for their downfall. It's mostly just here in F1 technical we see this theory.

I've already explained multiple times why Ferrari never said they lost competitiveness due to the TD039