2016 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 18-20

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Starscreamer
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Re: 2016 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 18-20

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Andres125sx wrote:
Starscreamer wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:It´s funny to read people saying Max was faster than Carlos, when Carlos was stuck behind traffic the whole race....

Almost as funny as hearing Max crying.... After past season with him ignoring TOs despite Carlos let him pass more than once, now he really expected Carlos to let him pass again? Really? Carlos can be too honest, but he´s not that stupid.

Now STR has a problem they caused theirselves, Max think the whole team is here to serve him. They should have punished him past season after ignoring TOs, but they didn´t and now Max think he can do whatever he wants. That´s what happens when you pamper a teenager.
Unfortunately I can not give you a minus for your childish reaction :-"
Sorry but you´re mistaken, I´m not Max Verstappen :mrgreen:
No you come from Spain so that explains your comment :D
We both have pink glasses for our driver :lol:
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ME4ME
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Re: 2016 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 18-20

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AnthonyG wrote:
ME4ME wrote:There was no fault on Sainz part. I think Verstappen understands Sainz position and would have done the same. Verstappens problem is with the team for a) Not pitting him when he wanted. b) Letting Sainz do the undercut on him. c) Mess up his pitstop.

He was furious, but he had good reason to. He had 1.4 sec/lap in hand all the time, which showed itself when he spun and then had to catch back up to Sainz (who himself was being held up). The situation was somewhat similar to Alonso at Abu Dhabi 2010. When you're held up with such pace in hand, frustration is going to take over inevitably.
A driver can decide when to pit, if Sainz comes in (from what I remember he did so because his tyres were gone), what will the team do? Refuse to pit him because Verstappen will come in a lap later?

If he had that in hand, he'd gone past.
Oh dear, the ignorance.. #-o

If a driver just dives into the pit without confirmation that the team is ready, they probably aren't ready. So that almost guarantees a slow stop.

Re-watch the race and you see he had that in hand. Thats a simple fact. Sainz probably had the same in-hand, but was hold up as well. It's one of the characteristics of this circuit. Hamilton was in the same situation when running behind the Toro Rosso's.

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 18-20

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About the rest of the race....


- Ferrari as always, second class, missing strategies and failing at the pit-stops. Nothing new.

- Mercedes struggling at the starts. Not first time, but they´re so fast it really doesn´t matter, specially when they fight with a team who can ruin their race by their own

- Amazing result for Haas, extremely lucky obviously, but Grosjean managed the pressure perferctly. Great job

- Surprising RBR, after pre-season and qualifying, much better pace than expected. I like Ric more and more each GP.

- I´m sure teh most damaging part of the accident for Alonso is the lost of a new PU, reducing his allocations after just first race. Same as past season when Magnussen PU didn´t manage to start the race. Very different causes tough

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 18-20

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Starscreamer wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:
Starscreamer wrote:
Unfortunately I can not give you a minus for your childish reaction :-"
Sorry but you´re mistaken, I´m not Max Verstappen :mrgreen:
No you come from Spain so that explains your comment :D
We both have pink glasses for our driver :lol:
Maybe you cannot be objective with drivers you like, but I always try to, and try it hard.

But when a driver has ignored TOs, he can´t seriously ask the team to provide TOs to his team mate. That´s an extraordinary exercise of arrogance.... I don´t let him pass even if my boss ask me to do so, but when I´m back I demand he let me pass??? Sorry but that´s arrogance no matter how you look at it.

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Manoah2u
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Re: 2016 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 18-20

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hemichromis wrote:
WaikeCU wrote:
Manoah2u wrote: - Verstappen has potential but needs to calm down even though he has been treated fairly indecent by Sainz and the team, starting with getting undercut whilst being the leading car [ remember the war that caused within AMG Mercedes... ] and then the team not being able to respond to Max entering the pitlane. that cost him his race. His frustrations publicly on the radio were a huge letdown and bad for his name. Just pass or accept and calm the hell down. If he had kept his cool instead of burn the team down i'm fairly positive the team would have radio-ed in more clear to sainz to swap or come in. he shoot himself in the foot.
He acted all spoiled on the radio, but he really had the speed. First of all he got pitted after Sainz when he was in front of him. Then the pit crew were not ready, in which he lost a lot of time. But then he managed to close the gap to Sainz. Then it was known that Sainz had ignored the team order. When Verstappen spun, he was still able to close the gap yet again to Sainz. Well, if you ignore team orders then you really have to proof that you have a reason to ignore it and that was by passing the cars in front of you, which Sainz hasn't done.

Red bull used to do that with Ricciardo and Kvyat. Afterwards on the last lap they reversed their positions.
Singapore 2015;

Team asks Verstappen to let Sainz through as Sainz was faster.
Verstappen' response: NO!

Why would Sainz yield this year?
wake up. Sainz screwed verstappen by pitting first. that is strike 1 and it was a heavy blow. it was uncalled for and selfish.
Verstappen drove in front of Sainz. Leading team driver has the call on the pitstop. Therefore, Verstappen had the RIGHT to pit before Sainz did, and Sainz HAD to yield and wait. Vertappen complained on his tires just as much as Sainz.
Despite being on a different strategy, the team HAD to call verstappen in. Instead, they took in Sainz. that was the big wrong. Sainz got a unearned benefit and effectively the team undercut their own driver that was actually faster.

This is the wrong from the Sainz department, Sainz' race engineer and the team itself. it was thoroughly wrong, no matter what position they're racing in.

But matters got worse when they did not appropriately inform Verstappen on their tactics to pit him. Meanwhile, the driver still is able to decide for himself to pit. I have zero doubt that verstappen said ; i'm coming in when entering the pitlane.
the team SHOULD have had his tires ready and able to get ready in the time it takes for pit entry and arriving at the garage.
they weren't and it was a mess. That was strike and blow 2 for Verstappen and should never have happened. it was something you wouldn't even forgive HAAS as a newcomer.

Obviously, this destroyed Verstappens great performance during the weekend and saw him stranded behind his teammate.

Verstappen is to blame for losing his temper [ quite the Verstappen character family flaw ], but the team & Sainz are to blame for screwing him over. The team knows this and gave a clear message to Sainz; push or swap.

I fully understand Sainz not moving aside, indeed especially with what happened last year though the circumstances were different. The result in this being Verstappen could have scored a lot more than just 1 point. Either way, verstappen was too heated up to keep his calm and control, and made mistakes.

but it must above all not be forgotten how this happened:
cause: STR Team made errors that are dismal, & Sainz was egoistic and selfish by fully knowing he screwed over his teammate in the very first GP by pitting first whilst being behind him.

To be honest, i really dont get why Verstappen is burned for being 'vocal' about it.
Kimi Raikkonen is praised as the cool guy and people worship him for his behaviour, but when Verstappen does the same it's 'immature' and because he's a 'teenager'?
sorry for being harsh but GTFO.
I do think Verstappen should keep his temper. Keeping calm is what sets him apart from his father, and is why he is essentialy the better driver. When he lets his temper get the hold of him he's heading for a 100% repeat of Jos,
making heated mistakes and ending in the sandpits, offtrack, or being too harsh on his car, ending with only being able
to drive for midfield or even backfield teams.

This will definately be a paramount year for Verstappen. it would be foolish to throw the potential away like that.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

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Phil
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Re: 2016 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 18-20

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LionKing wrote:There is one aspect you are not considering in your assessment Phil; the pace advantage Rosberg would have if there were no safety car.

Vettel was 10 seconds behind Lewis after his final stop, caught him in 14 laps with soft tires when both in clean air. Rosberg would not have taken the mediums without the safety car.

Vettel and Rosberg would have done sth like SS - SS -S or SS -S - S. As I said, once they built a pit stop gap, it would have been over for Lewis. They would have made their pit stops and come out in front. 15 laps on SS and 25 laps on softs against 40 lap on mediums for Lewis. (even without considering Lewis being behind the Toro Rossos.)
Yes and no. Ignore Rosberg and focus on Vettel; Vettel was on that SS-SS-S strategy and Vettel was also dictating pace as the leading car. Even if Rosberg had been on the 'faster S' tyre instead of the 'M', he would have been held up and limited by Vettels pace for the most part of that stint. And Vettel was driving as fast as he could because he was driving to win.

I'm fairly confident though that Rosberg wouldn't have gotten by 'on track'. He didn't get by Raikoennen either and was only able to pass him through the pits and Ferrari covering Vettel instead of Kimi. If we focus solely on Vet vs Ros without safety-car, the only way Vettel would have won is by pitting earlier than Ros (which he was going to anyway, being on the less durable SS tire), then hope and pray that his fresher last stint on S would be as quick or initially quicker than Rosberg who'd be on S and pitting for another S later so that he'd come out BEHIND him and then again, hope and pray that Rosberg can not pass him on fresher tires. That was Vettels winning strategy.

But Rosberg changed to mediums on a 'free pitstop', meaning that for Vettel to win, he would have had to drive out a 20+ second gap, then at worst come out behind Rosberg and attack him to the flag on fresher tires.

If we include Hamilton into this, I conclude the 16.5 seconds he lost being behind Ves and Sai is pretty accurate. Without the safety car, he would have lost the same amount (given Ves and Sai did not change tires under the red-flag, so the situation didn't change). That would have put Hamilton roughly 40 seconds behind Rosberg still in 2nd and limited by Vettels pace on SS by lap ~32, but both needing to pit. I'm assuming Hamilton would have decreased that gap of 40 seconds as the laps continued until maybe 30 seconds.

The key point is; both would have pitted and come out *in front* of Hamilton. So no, Hamilton wouldn't have beat them on without the safety-car. Once pitted, even if the gap might have been down to 5-10 seconds, those gaps would have increased again as a result of both Vettel and Rosberg being on shorter stints on faster tires.

However, it would have been perhaps quite close. You see, with the red-flag scenario, Hamilton had 3 cars to pass: He was held up by two and passed Ricciardo on the track. That all cost time. Without a safety car and red-flag, it would have only been the two Torro-Rossos, as Ricciardo would have falled behind that pack due to his stop. So the net cost would have been slightly less without the safety car. I still don't think it would have been enough to beat either Vettel or Rosberg, but I'm fairly confident Kimi (assuming his car hadn't broke down) would have been nicked by Hamilton.

So my fairly analytical conclusion is:

With red-flag: Hamilton 2nd, Rosberg win (obviously)
With safety-car, no red-flag: Hamilton win [, 2nd Vet, 3rd Ros]
Without safety-car, no red-flag: Hamilton 3rd [, Vet win, Ros 2nd]

So, luck or no luck, the red-flag netted him 3 points. Big deal. On the other hand, I think the red-flag won Rosberg the race and robbed us of a spectacular Ros/Vet/Ham fight. Even if we ignore Hamilton, I think Vettel without a red-flag, safety-car could have held on to the win - just - and only due to the fact that Rosberg I don't think would have found a way past Vettel on track, just like Hamilton didn't get by the Torro-Rossos.

On the other hand; To think that Ferrari leading with both cars for the first 3rd of the race managed to lose both positions to Mercedes speaks volumes on a track like Melbourne where passing is very difficult IMO. I conclude Mercedes is mighty and I don't think Ferrari is that much closer than last year at all. They might still win a few GPs this year due to better tire degredation on some tracks, the occasional strategic error, Mercedes drivers fighting each other etc, but pace wise, I don't think they are close enough, or much closer than last on most tracks. I think under the presumption that they might ace the starts better here and there will be some cause of concern for Mercedes however, as getting ahead will mean that the race will be dictated by strategy on some tracks and that will cause a dilemma for Mercedes, especially with the parity between Hamilton and Rosberg.

As an example: The no-red-flag, yes safety car scenario: Imagine Hamilton had won yesterday thanks to going medium. I can't imagine Rosberg being too happy about that, because he will feel that he was on the wrong strategy and that there's no way a driver who was in 6th by the 3rd corner should have had any chance on beating him from further back due to strategy.
Last edited by Phil on 21 Mar 2016, 13:22, edited 3 times in total.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Starscreamer
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Re: 2016 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 18-20

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Andres125sx wrote:
Starscreamer wrote:
Andres125sx wrote: Sorry but you´re mistaken, I´m not Max Verstappen :mrgreen:
No you come from Spain so that explains your comment :D
We both have pink glasses for our driver :lol:
Maybe you cannot be objective with drivers you like, but I always try to, and try it hard.

But when a driver has ignored TOs, he can´t seriously ask the team to provide TOs to his team mate. That´s an extraordinary exercise of arrogance.... I don´t let him pass even if my boss ask me to do so, but when I´m back I demand he let me pass??? Sorry but that´s arrogance no matter how you look at it.

We will not agree with each other :wink:
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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 18-20

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Manoah2u wrote:[& Sainz was egoistic and selfish by fully knowing he screwed over his teammate in the very first GP by pitting first whilst being behind him.
So if Max couldn´t stop because he´d have been released behind traffic, then Carlos must wait too because he´s behind?

No way, if Max can´t do the pit-stop because of traffic that´s far from Carlos fault


Past season it was the opposite, in Hungary when they achieved best result of the season (Max was 4th). Carlos was in front, but the team called to pits Max first, undercutting Carlos and gifting Max the best result of the season

I don´t remember people complaining about Max because he was called first despite Carlos was in front....

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 18-20

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What are you trying to say posting that video?

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WaikeCU
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Re: 2016 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 18-20

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Other than the Sainz vs. Verstappen discussion, I thought Verstappen was exciting to watch. Even though he was frustrated, he was just throwing the car around the track. the car was literally dancing. He almost lost it coming out of turn 12. Surely he was pushing very hard in making up for the lost time.

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Starscreamer
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Re: 2016 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 18-20

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Andres125sx wrote:What are you trying to say posting that video?
"I'm a team player "
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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 18-20

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As he proved past season letting Max pass more than once without complaining at all, but if he´s a team player that does not mean he´s stupid. If you let your team mate pass more than once, but after that your team mate refuse to let you pass when the situation is inverted, then you´d be plain stupid if you continue letting him pass after that.

A team player, yes. Stupid, no.

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Starscreamer
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Re: 2016 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 18-20

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turbof1 wrote:
dot235 wrote:Not implying anything, but does anyone else find it a bit strange that as Alonso was getting alongside Gutierrez and started the move, he then turned right towards him just before the crash?

http://i.imgur.com/8W6ryEW.png
That's slightly misleading. The long corner bends off to the right so you are going to steer in that direction anyhow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLvMGPqhCo4

I'm very glad the crash structure and monocoque did their work:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cd-VnmGW4AAp1p2.jpg:large
Rest in peace, chassis 1 :( .
First of all I'am happy everyone is alright [-o<
Will Alonso get also 2 penalty points for the crash?
Same mistake Verstappen made in Monaco :-" but I think FIA maintain double standards
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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 18-20

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Starscreamer wrote:
turbof1 wrote:
dot235 wrote:Not implying anything, but does anyone else find it a bit strange that as Alonso was getting alongside Gutierrez and started the move, he then turned right towards him just before the crash?

http://i.imgur.com/8W6ryEW.png
That's slightly misleading. The long corner bends off to the right so you are going to steer in that direction anyhow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLvMGPqhCo4

I'm very glad the crash structure and monocoque did their work:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cd-VnmGW4AAp1p2.jpg:large
Rest in peace, chassis 1 :( .
First of all I'am happy everyone is alright [-o<
Will Alonso get also 2 penalty points for the crash?
Same mistake Verstappen made in Monaco :-" but I think FIA maintain double standards
Except Grosjean didn´t change direction twice as Esteban did :roll:


BTW, before you start saying I´m spanish and I´m biased, that´s the conclusion they got in Sky, british TV. Gutierrez moved the wheel left when he shouldn´t. They draw a line on the onboard camera over the wheel to notice any movement, and it´s easy to see how he moved the wheel left just before the impact

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WaikeCU
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Re: 2016 Australian Grand Prix - Melbourne, March 18-20

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How you want to put it, Thank God Alonso didn't get launched when they collided. Last thing we want is seeing a Mclaren flying towards the catchfence like Villeneuve did back in 2001. The crash would have been less worse if the gravel trap was replaced by tarmac.