Are we seeing a Vettel era?

[beelsebob]

In regards to titanic comebacks from the rear of the pack to make it to the podium, I'd like to point out Webber in China '11. Sure he was helped out massively by the DRS zone, but he was making up seconds upon seconds and probably would've had the measure of Vettel and Hamilton had it gone on for another few laps. Not a champion (yet) but still a good driver in a good car.

Webber in China '11 wasn't a come back, it was just running a different strategy. He did his hard stint first, it was obvious he would drop more than a second a lap during it, and it was obvious he would gain more than a second a lap once onto the softs while everyone else was on their hard stint... I don't get why people haven't spied that.

The true comeback of the season was Button in Canada, which was a quite frankly, unbelievable drive.

[Hail22]

Why is winning from pole a bad thing? For all we know the McLaren probably should've been faster - it was the fastest wet car that year. That he got the pole in a Toro Rosso in itself is an amazing feat - and I don't see how that makes it a bad thing.

Alonso 2010 Monaco started i believe 1st, punctured his tyre dropped all the way to last and fought all the way back to achieve 5th (i believe).

Schumacher as well has achieved such a feat.

These two men a long with Button are the only 3 i know of who can be in last position and make something of it.

Vettel isn't a champ unless he is on the first two rows, he is a chump...

[Hail22]

As far as finger-jousting go, I'm sorry, but the way Vettel takes the finger of success and twists it around like that is just kind of naughty!

He should consider being a proctal examiner if he continues to finger joust like that...he may find a few prostate cancers a long the way...

[raymondu999]

Alonso 2010 Monaco started i believe 1st, punctured his tyre dropped all the way to last and fought all the way back to achieve 5th (i believe).

Wow do you even bother to check facts first? Alonso trashed his chassis in FP3. He never qualified and so started from the pitlane. He took advantage of a lap 1 safety car and pitted, then overtook the 3 numpty Lotus/Virgin/HRT teams and basically stayed there - which got him 5th..

As far as finger-jousting go, I'm sorry, but the way Vettel takes the finger of success and twists it around like that is just kind of naughty!

He should consider being a proctal examiner if he continues to finger joust like that...he may find a few prostate cancers a long the way...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10668&p=310632#p310632

[CHT]

Alonso 2010 Monaco started i believe 1st, punctured his tyre dropped all the way to last and fought all the way back to achieve 5th (i believe).

Wow do you even bother to check facts first? Alonso trashed his chassis in FP3. He never qualified and so started from the pitlane. He took advantage of a lap 1 safety car and pitted, then overtook the 3 numpty Lotus/Virgin/HRT teams and basically stayed there - which got him 5th..

As far as finger-jousting go, I'm sorry, but the way Vettel takes the finger of success and twists it around like that is just kind of naughty!

He should consider being a proctal examiner if he continues to finger joust like that...he may find a few prostate cancers a long the way...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10668&p=310632#p310632

I noticed that too, but couldnt be bother to reply.

[mnmracer]

Why is winning from pole a bad thing? For all we know the McLaren probably should've been faster - it was the fastest wet car that year. That he got the pole in a Toro Rosso in itself is an amazing feat - and I don't see how that makes it a bad thing.

...
Vettel isn't a champ unless he is on the first two rows, he is a chump...

In a way, I guess I should admire you for not letting the facts get in your way:

• Ayrton Senna only won 2 races starting lower than the second row, and finished on the podium only 6 times not starting in the top 6.
• Out of his many wins, Michael Schumacher won only 6 races starting lower than the second row, and finished on the podium only 9 times not starting in the top 6.
• Juan Pablo Montoya, Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel have never won a race starting lower than p4.
• Of the 392 combined race wins of these drivers, only 41 (less than 1 in 9) were not won by starting in the top 4.
• Of the 193 combined race wins of the modern day drivers, only 18 (less than 1 in 10) were not won by starting in the top 4.
• Of the 795 combined podium finishes of these drivers, only 97 (less than 1 in 8 ) were not achieved by starting in the top 6.
• Of the 440 combined podium finishes of the modern day drivers, only 42 (less than 1 in 10) were not achieved by starting in the top 6.

Juan Manuel Fangio
24 wins, 35 podiums
* Won 54% of his races from pole (13 / 24)
* Won all of his races from front row
* Took 46% of his top 3 finishes from pole (16 / 35)
* Took 91% of his top 3 finishes from front row (32 / 35)
* Took all of his top 3 finishes from front 2 rows

Jim Clark
25 wins, 32 podiums
* Won 60% of his races from pole (15 / 25)
* Won 84% of his races from front row (21 / 25)
* Won 88% of his races from top 4 start (22 / 25)
* Took 50% of his top 3 finishes from pole (16 / 32)
* Took 75% of his top 3 finishes from front row (24 / 32)
* Took 75% of his top 3 finishes from top 4 start (24 / 32)
* Took 84% of his top 3 finishes from top 6 start (27 / 32)

Jackie Stewart
27 wins, 43 podiums
* Won 30% of his races from pole (8 / 27)
* Won 52% of his races from front row (14 / 27)
* Won 81% of his races from top 4 start (22 / 27)
* Took 23% of his top 3 finishes from pole (10 / 43)
* Took 47% of his top 3 finishes from front row (20 / 43)
* Took 77% of his top 3 finishes from top 4 start (33 / 43)
* Took 86% of his top 3 finishes from top 6 start (36 / 43)

Alain Prost
51 wins, 106 podiums
* Won 35% of his races from pole (18 / 51)
* Won 59% of his races from front row (30 / 51)
* Won 80% of his races from top 4 start (41 / 51)
* Took 24% of his top 3 finishes from pole (25 / 106)
* Took 43% of his top 3 finishes from front row (46 / 106)
* Took 75% of his top 3 finishes from top 4 start (80 / 106)
* Took 91% of his top 3 finishes from top 6 start (96 / 106)

Nigel Mansell
31 wins, 59 podiums
* Won 55% of his races from pole (17 / 31)
* Won 84% of his races from front row (26 / 31)
* Won 90% of his races from top 4 start (28 / 31)
* Took 29% of his top 3 finishes from pole (17 / 59)
* Took 34% of his top 3 finishes from front row (20 / 59)
* Took 56% of his top 3 finishes from top 4 start (33 / 59)
* Took 66% of his top 3 finishes from top 6 start (39 / 59)

Ayrton Senna
41 wins, 80 podiums
* Won 71% of his races from pole (29 / 41)
* Won 80% of his races from front row (33 / 41)
* Won 95% of his races from top 4 start (39 / 41)
* Took 49% of his top 3 finishes from pole (39 / 80)
* Took 63% of his top 3 finishes from front row (50 / 80)
* Took 90% of his top 3 finishes from top 4 start (72 / 80)
* Took 93% of his top 3 finishes from top 6 start (74 / 80)

Michael Schumacher
91 wins, 154 podiums
* Won 44% of his races from pole (40 / 91)
* Won 76% of his races from front row (69 / 91)
* Won 93% of his races from top 4 start (85 / 91)
* Took 36% of his top 3 finishes from pole (55 / 154)
* Took 59% of his top 3 finishes from front row (90 / 154)
* Took 88% of his top 3 finishes from top 4 start (135 / 154)
* Took 94% of his top 3 finishes from top 6 start (145 / 154)

Jenson Button
12 wins, 43 podiums
* Won 33% of his races from pole (4 / 12)
* Won 50% of his races from front row (6 / 12)
* Won 75% of his races from top 4 start (9 / 12)
* Took 12% of his top 3 finishes from pole (5 / 43)
* Took 26% of his top 3 finishes from front row (11 / 43)
* Took 58% of his top 3 finishes from top 4 start (25 / 43)
* Took 79% of his top 3 finishes from top 6 start (34 / 43)

Juan Pablo Montoya (included because he is known for being a great modern overtaker)
7 wins, 30 podiums
* Won 43% of his races from pole (3 / 7)
* Won 71% of his races from front row (5 / 7)
* Won all of his races from top 4 start
* Took 13% of his top 3 finishes from pole (4 / 30)
* Took 40% of his top 3 finishes from front row (12 / 30)
* Took 80% of his top 3 finishes from top 4 start (24 / 30)
* Took 87% of his top 3 finishes from top 6 start (26 / 30)

Fernando Alonso
27 wins, 73 podiums
* Won 48% of his races from pole (13 / 27)
* Won 63% of his races from front row (17 / 27)
* Won 89% of his races from top 4 start (24 / 27)
* Took 27% of his top 3 finishes from pole (20 / 73)
* Took 36% of his top 3 finishes from front row (26 / 73)
* Took 63% of his top 3 finishes from top 4 start (46 / 73)
* Took 82% of his top 3 finishes from top 6 start (60 / 73)

Kimi Räikkönen (included because he is known for getting good results from lower starting positions)
18 wins, 62 podiums
* Won 28% of his races from pole (5 / 18)
* Won 50% of his races from front row (9 / 18)
* Won 67% of his races from top 4 start (12 / 18)
* Took 15% of his top 3 finishes from pole (20 / 62)
* Took 34% of his top 3 finishes from front row (26 / 62)
* Took 66% of his top 3 finishes from top 4 start (45 / 62)
* Took 79% of his top 3 finishes from top 6 start (57 / 62)

Lewis Hamilton
17 wins, 42 podiums
* Won 53% of his races from pole (9 / 17)
* Won 76% of his races from front row (13 / 17)
* Won all of his races from top 4 start
* Took 33% of his top 3 finishes from pole (14 / 42)
* Took 57% of his top 3 finishes from front row (24 / 42)
* Took 93% of his top 3 finishes from top 4 start (39 / 42)
* Took 98% of his top 3 finishes from top 6 start (41 / 42)

Sebastian Vettel
21 wins, 36 podiums
* Won 76% of his races from pole (16 / 21)
* Won 95% of his races from front row (20 / 21)
* Won all of his races from top 4 start
* Took 67% of his top 3 finishes from pole (24 / 36)
* Took 86% of his top 3 finishes from front row (31 / 36)
* Took 97% of his top 3 finishes from top 4 start (35 / 36)
* Took 97% of his top 3 finishes from top 6 start (35 / 36)

[PlatinumZealot]

Uh.doesn't matter.. Vettel has the best car and journeyman team mate. He won't get any ratings until he races against Alonso or Hamilton or even Button as team mates. He needs to remove that Cotton ball and INVITE On of the top dogs into the Team. Then we can see how fast he really is! hahaha.

You know what even before that, Lets see how fast the RB8 in Australia - if it's a RB on pole then..

[raymondu999]

To be frank - like you said; we don't know how fast he is (Webber aside). By extension; we don't know how fast the car is. Assuming he had an average of 3 tenths in qualifying (random number). The car could be as fast as the McLaren but Vettel is 3 tenths quicker than the McL boys; the car could be 3 tenths faster and Vettel's just as fast as the McL boys. Or the car could be 6 tenths faster and Vettel is 3 tenths slower than the McL boys.

Are we agreed on at least this point?

[the EDGE]

Redbull era....most certainly

vettel era....not on your Nelly, he barely won in '10, didn't even top the standings till the very very end

[bhall]

[...]we don't know how fast the car is.

I've got a pretty good idea of Red Bull's pace.

[raymondu999]

he barely won in '10, didn't even top the standings till the very very end

Are you actually saying Vettel didn't improve into 2011?

[bhall]

I'll put it this way: the RB7 was so good that Red Bull took a significant risk when they ran their cars with suspect camber in Belgium.

Why did they do this, you ask? Because they were going for a clean Red Bull sweep of every pole position in 2011. Such a feat was legitimately within their grasp, too.

That doesn't point to a good car; that points to an extraordinary car.

EDIT: This thread is going in circles at this point, so I'm going to leave it with this: Vettel is a great driver. He is deserving of everything he's won thus far, and I see no reason why he can't eventually be called an all-time great.

But, he ain't quite there yet. Much to his credit, he's doing exactly what's expected of him, and that itself is not easy. If it was Jarno Trulli would have probably had a very different career.

At some point, though, the Newey/Red Bull well will dry up. What Vettel does when that happens will then decide if he's a great driver or if he's a legendary driver.

[raymondu999]

I'll put it this way: the RB7 was so good that Red Bull took a significant risk when they ran their cars with suspect camber in Belgium.

Or that they needed to go extreme on camber to GET that pole.

[bhall]

Fair enough, chief. I'll leave you with your mental gymnastics.

[mnmracer]

Redbull era....most certainly

Ah yes, because both Red Bulls are doing amazing. If it wasn't for Vettel, Red Bull would have still won an amazing 3 races in 2011! Not like the Schumacher era, when it was all Schumacher and Barichello barely ever came second. Oh wait...

vettel era....not on your Nelly, he barely won in '10, didn't even top the standings till the very very end

2010 was more than any other recent season influenced by mechanical faillures. Only counting faillures outside the drivers' grip, Vettel lost 62 points, and would have otherwise won the championship with races to spare, and a total of 63 points ahead of Hamilton.

what you said

Why is the Red Bull considered super fast because Vettel (and only Vettel) is bloody good in it, and is the Ferrari considered a bad car because Massa (and only Massa) is fighting back with the Mercedes' and Renaults?