F1 2016 pre-season testing

[dot235]

Mercedes has excellent reliability because not much changed with their Pu from last year.They also happened to top testing miles last year and their PU was still less reliable than the Ferrari PU.

The scary thing to me watching Mercedes complete their testing mileage is that they are seemingly on top of things and very confident. Seemingly in control too over their testing too.

I.e. If their testing was riddled with problems, I'd be guessing that they have changed too many parts or pushed too hard in certain areas leading to the problems they're experiencing. That would be less ideal and it would show.

This isn't the case. They are breezing through testing with impressive stint times and the team also seems very confident and reliability looks to be as impressive as it has been in 2014 and 2015, despite having the already strongest package. They had a fantastic baseline in both previous years and this looks like an evolution of it. No ugly surprises so far.

This.

I'am almost willing to bet that Mercedes overall improved more than McLaren.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

I.e. If their testing was riddled with problems, I'd be guessing that they have changed too many parts or pushed too hard in certain areas leading to the problems they're experiencing. That would be less ideal and it would show.

I am not sure if this is the right way to look at it. When Mercedes ran their new car first time in 2014, although almost everything was new, it didn't failed. They had adopted a concept like Split turbo, which was unheard of before, but that didn't failed. Contrary to that, Renault who came with traditional approach, had miserable start to 2014. Honda went with a different approach in 2015, but had miserable start to 2015. So, to say that a team facing difficulties is a sign of pushing too hard, doesn't hold water. It's about the quality procedures in the manufacturing process that helps in products performing as they should in the field. It's not about radical approach that fails the products.

[Gridlock]

Mercedes started working on the (then-I4) engine in what, 2010? I think that gets overlooked. Honda last year were publicly doing what Merc were doing in 2013 privately.

And then there's that Ferrari mule we all heard lapping Fiorano. Don't think that quite made it to production yet...

I cut Honda and to a lesser extent Renault a lot of slack in this regard. Renault spent so much time winning world championships with/for RBR their V6 development suffered, and RB were just lovely about it..

[Phil]

GPR-A:

You are now looking at my quote out of context. Within context, it's what I'd be assuming *after* 2014 and 2015, knowing they have a very solid base-line. So it doesn't apply to 2014 pre-testing at all where we didn't know that.

My point is that the conclusions to be made are to be looked at within context. Context means that the teams position in the previous year within multiple years of more or less consistent rules are important and just as relevant to what impression is formed.

My overall point is that testing is very limited. It's the first and only opportunity to extensively test the entire package. You don't want to be held back my for instance an engine that develops faults that ideally could have been solved on a dyno. You also don't want to be held back by other problems that cause you to lose important track time. That track time is important, because it shows the 'package' on track, running. This is not only important for those people seeing the engine run within that package under near race conditions, but also the team to see if the aero package is running as expected. So it's important that all elements are working in harmony so that the team can gather as much data as possible. When that works and you have a solid package, you can change around parts and see what difference it makes.

Contrary case: Nothing works, you are facing problems you shouldn't have and this ultimately leads to less track time, less data and less knowledge. Not good. This highlights the scenario where things are not working according to plan and somewhere, something went wrong, was miscalculated or even worse, small building errors lead to costly track time being lost.

Of course it always depends how aggressive a team is when showing up for testing. But if you are limited by 8 days, I guess the biggest aim would be to not let that happen (push too far to then be faced with something *not working* and then losing a lot of time over it).

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Mercedes started working on the (then-I4) engine in what, 2010?

No. They actually started the work on 2014 PU since Dinosaurs existed on this planet. 2010? Seriously? If you don't have ideas, no amount of time and money is enough. Look at Renault, they have been unable to do any serious inroads on their PU side.
As for Ferrari, they hired Wolf Zimmermann in 2014, who was Hybrid specialist at Mercedes. Boom, they got their hybrid problems resolved.
And you are forgetting the fact that, Honda had the opportunity to look at every single screw and bolt of 2014 Merc PU, when McLaren was still using it in 2014. They couldn't do anything great either. Honda has been refusing to hire people from outside and they are hell bent on only depending upon their Japanese staff within Honda, although they have been utilizing some consultants of late. It's about right people, right atmosphere and right resources (money included). Look at Force India, a team over achieving beyond their resource capabilities.
Just saying Mercedes started long back is taking all the credit away from their hard work.

[Samraj_official]

i am not sure about their PU, but their 2014 aero started in 2012.

[Gridlock]

I found a few references to 2012, so I will go with that - I'm sure I heard 2010 somewhere. When was the I4 first mooted?

They had a 270kg prototype hybrid in 2012 so I'd wager the design started in at least 2011.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/18/11031 ... ngineering

Anyway, not taking anything away from their hard work.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

i am not sure about their PU, but their 2014 aero started in 2012.

With a car (W03) that was eating the tyres as if the fuel in the tank wasn't enough to drink? 2012 was an year of loads of transformation for that team. Geoff Willis joined in late 2011, Loic Bigois was asked to leave because of the poor performance of W03 and the Ferrari rejected Aldo Costa joined in 2012. In the same year, their Wind tunnel was going through an upgrade for 60% model. So, to believe they laid the foundation of W05 in 2012 is just going too far in fantasy. Even the W04, that was in fact a quick car, had deep rooted issues with respect to tyre eating in its DNA, along with a PU that was too thirsty to generate aero advantage for coanda exhaust exploitation. So no, W05 and the Hybrid PU are both a result of a totally different platform and thought process. I remember this, when Ross went on hiring a bunch of Technical directors from various teams, it was looked down as a laughing stock because they were just too many chefs.
Their current winter testing form, just proves the high quality production and development procedures that they have adopted through the hard lessons they learnt over a difficult period of time.

[bhall II]

I found a few references to 2012, so I will go with that - I'm sure I heard 2010 somewhere. When was the I4 first mooted?

Mercedes’ engine dominance spawns from Brixworth’s potent brainpower, but also from its technological edge and early start, with Cowell’s team beginning to work on their hybrid power unit back in 2010. And they have gone for a very specific engine architecture, which remains a distinctive feature to this date [2015].

The initial engineering conversations between the teams at Brackley and Brixworth around both the regulations and potential solutions date back to late 2010. Since mid-2011, when the rules for the new V6 Hybrid Power Unit were officially published, Mercedes-Benz claims that it has taken a fully integrated approach to every major performance decision with a clear-sighted focus on maximising overall car performance.

“We started thinking about [PU design] almost as soon as [Brawn] was bought by Mercedes [in 2010],” [Nick] Fry told Telegraph Sport. “It presented the best opportunity of overhauling Red Bull, so resources were dedicated to it from a very early stage."

[ferkan]

Mercedes started working on the (then-I4) engine in what, 2010?

No. They actually started the work on 2014 PU since Dinosaurs existed on this planet. 2010? Seriously? If you don't have ideas, no amount of time and money is enough. Look at Renault, they have been unable to do any serious inroads on their PU side.
As for Ferrari, they hired Wolf Zimmermann in 2014, who was Hybrid specialist at Mercedes. Boom, they got their hybrid problems resolved.
And you are forgetting the fact that, Honda had the opportunity to look at every single screw and bolt of 2014 Merc PU, when McLaren was still using it in 2014. They couldn't do anything great either. Honda has been refusing to hire people from outside and they are hell bent on only depending upon their Japanese staff within Honda, although they have been utilizing some consultants of late. It's about right people, right atmosphere and right resources (money included). Look at Force India, a team over achieving beyond their resource capabilities.
Just saying Mercedes started long back is taking all the credit away from their hard work.

Wolf Zimmermann was actually Lotus guy, Allison probably picked him.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Code: Select all

[quote="Gridlock"]I found a few references to 2012, so I will go with that - I'm sure I heard 2010 somewhere. When was the I4 first mooted?[/quote]
[quote="[url=http://en.f1i.com/magazine/36632-exclusive-pictures-of-the-mercedes-power-unit.html]f1i.com[/url]"]Mercedes’ engine dominance spawns from Brixworth’s potent brainpower, but also from its technological edge and early start, with Cowell’s team beginning to work on their hybrid power unit back in 2010. And they have gone for a very specific engine architecture, which remains a distinctive feature to this date [2015]. [/quote]
[quote="[url=http://www.racecar-engineering.com/cars/mercedes-w05/]Racecar Engineering[/url]"]The initial engineering conversations between the teams at Brackley and Brixworth around both the regulations and potential solutions date back to late 2010. Since mid-2011, when the rules for the new V6 Hybrid Power Unit were officially published, Mercedes-Benz claims that it has taken a fully integrated approach to every major performance decision with a clear-sighted focus on maximising overall car performance.[/quote]
[quote="[url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/11163080/Lewis-Hamilton-These-past-two-years-at-Mercedes-have-been-the-best-of-my-life.html]The Telegraph[/url]"]“We started thinking about [PU design] almost as soon as [Brawn] was bought by Mercedes [in 2010],” [Nick] Fry told Telegraph Sport. “It presented the best opportunity of overhauling Red Bull, so resources were dedicated to it from a very early stage."[/quote]

Andy Cowell's words...
Mercedes split turbo design was 'bloody hard' to get right

Mercedes started work on its power unit three years before it was introduced, but Cowell admits his team had little in the way of expertise at that stage and even borrowed some ideas from Mercedes' truck department.
"There were not many of us who had worked on turbos back in 2011 when we started looking at the regulations. I think there were two people who had worked on turbos, and one of those had changed a turbo on his Subaru that had failed! It was a completely different technology and way of approaching it.

"Daimler with their truck engine division, and the turbo chargers involved in that, helped tremendously. There were several thermodynamic sizing areas where they helped and several reliability issues where they helped as well.

What was Mercedes working on, when the rules for the ICE and Hybrid systems were finalized in middle of 2011? And that with no experience of turbo, like Cowell mentions? Renault on the other hand had successful experience of turbo engines from the 80s.
Mercedes split turbo design was 'bloody hard' to get right

Germany's Auto Motor und Sport said the V-angle - 90 or 120 degrees - is yet to be specified, while the expected rev-limit will increase from the 12,000 proposed for the four-cylinders to 15,000rpm in 2014.

I like the title of the news here...
FIA 2014 Formula One regulations published - with surprises

Andy Cowell himself, in Dec 2011, was thinking that they can go until 15,000 RPM.
MERCEDES ON TARGET WITH 2014 ENGINES - POSTED BY: JAMES ALLEN | 28 DEC 2011 | 5:26 PM GMT |

As for many fans’ fears that the sound will be disappointing, Cowell disagrees. With a rev limit of 15,000 the engines will scream and with
six exhaust pipes going into one turbocharger Cowell believes it will sound “very nice.”
He’ll find out soon as Mercedes are shaping up to do their first run on the dyno in the coming months.

Ben, most of your links are afterthoughts, posted later than 2014 after the success of Mercedes.

[damager21]

I'am almost willing to bet that Mercedes overall improved more than McLaren.

I have a different opinion. I don't think Mercedes would have improved more than McLaren for a simple reason that Honda had a bad ERS last year which is expected to perform better. Currently on a detuned engine, they have already gained about 0.5 secs from ERS. I expect this to be about 1 sec once they start running on full power.

However, there is a possibility that Mercedes improvement from ICE and chassis could be greater than what McLaren Honda has managed currently.

[Sevach]

Mercedes' only PU failure came in Monza, where Nico was driving a PU that was doing sixth race. None of Ferrari's PUs did more than 4 races.

That's incorrect info, engine number 3 did Canada, Austria, GB, Hungary and Spa on both Ferrari's.

Sauber engine 2 went six races on both cars, Ferrari conciously commited to one penalty to push upgrades, not because their engines weren't good enough.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Mercedes' only PU failure came in Monza, where Nico was driving a PU that was doing sixth race. None of Ferrari's PUs did more than 4 races.

That's incorrect info, engine number 3 did Canada, Austria, GB, Hungary and Spa on both Ferrari's.

Sauber engine 2 went six races on both cars, Ferrari conciously commited to one penalty to push upgrades, not because their engines weren't good enough.

My bad. Thank you. But well, you look at this and make out who was more reliable. This is a report at the end of Abu Dhabi GP.

[henra]

This is a report at the end of Abu Dhabi GP.
http://s26.postimg.org/s9ijwa8gp/pu_usage.jpg

Fascinating!
No Merc Team had to use one single component more than allowed. None whatsoever.
Besides their undisputed power this is an amazing achievement by Mercedes.