The sheer consistency in laptimes points to driving to target numbers in both stints, and maybe there was even more performance that wasn't shown.
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Like a robot amazing. Remember he won 10 races in the row in 2023. His consistency is remarkable.venkyhere wrote: ↑08 Sep 2025, 15:37Max was the fastest over only 32/53 = 60% of the total laps, yet was dominant throughout the race.
The sheer consistency in laptimes points to driving to target numbers in both stints, and maybe there was even more performance that wasn't shown.
https://i.ibb.co/4g13XLwf/monza-2025-race-pace.png
Yeah Yuki had too much wing still and an older spec floor. He wasn't going to have a performance like Max. Only Max has that balance and feel for the car. Yuki would be doing better in the Vcarb that is for sure.basti313 wrote: ↑08 Sep 2025, 09:43Did not play any role: Already by lap 6 he was out of DRS and carried this issue into the pitstops. In the end, the main damage of his race was the undercut by Bea. This was only possible, because Yuki did not have the pace to close the gap to Alo. So it was a pure pace issue from the beginning of the race.
That was a very, very bad race unfortunately.
Towards the end of the first stint Max started to loose time on Norris. His tires were gone. They showed it in the life feed, but every third lap or so Norris lost time back to Max. Of Norris was consistent like Max he would have forced Max into a stop much earlier. Max is just incredible.venkyhere wrote: ↑08 Sep 2025, 15:37Max was the fastest over only 32/53 = 60% of the total laps, yet was dominant throughout the race.
The sheer consistency in laptimes points to driving to target numbers in both stints, and maybe there was even more performance that wasn't shown.
https://i.ibb.co/4g13XLwf/monza-2025-race-pace.png
Nice Q. Such discussions are what I look forward to, in f1technical, not the "my driver/team v/s your driver/team" ying-yang in team threads where we have to endure 'rival fans' vs 'home fans' verbal diarrhea.pantherxxx wrote: ↑08 Sep 2025, 18:23Do we have any data on Verstappen’s speed through Turns 1–2 and 4–5? Those are the only low-speed corners at Monza, so if he was relatively quick there despite the low-downforce setup compared to the McLarens, that would be very promising. That would indeed indicate the RB21 had strong mechanical grip and balance with the new floor.
Max was very strong in sector 2 too at the beginning of the stint, but by lap 20 or so he started losing out more in Lesmo 1 and 2. Max suffered from blistering on the front tyre at the end of the medium stint.venkyhere wrote: ↑08 Sep 2025, 19:13Nice Q. Such discussions are what I look forward to, in f1technical, not the "my driver/team v/s your driver/team" ying-yang in team threads where we have to endure 'rival fans' vs 'home fans' verbal diarrhea.pantherxxx wrote: ↑08 Sep 2025, 18:23Do we have any data on Verstappen’s speed through Turns 1–2 and 4–5? Those are the only low-speed corners at Monza, so if he was relatively quick there despite the low-downforce setup compared to the McLarens, that would be very promising. That would indeed indicate the RB21 had strong mechanical grip and balance with the new floor.
Dug into the data a little bit, took a lap somewhere in the middle of the race where all the top4 runners had relatively close enough lap times, and the data is very revealing, and answers your Q, and more - where is each of them 'finding their time' ?
This is lap23 :
https://i.ibb.co/cKv3NhKf/monza-2025-lap23.png
We know the Mclarens were on higher DF than Redbull and Ferrari, the latter two top speed advantage (Ferrari even more so). What the data reveals :
- Nothing to separate all four across the T1-2 chicane, there is a mix of early/late entry/exit, but evens out.
- McLarens are acing S2 (as expected, with their relatively higher downforce setup) and aren't losing much in S1 or S3
- LeClerc is S1 king, his gain is mainly through the curve grande all the way until braking for the 2nd chicane. Thereafter, S2 is a disaster for the Ferrari due to lack of downforce. He recovers a bit of time on the back straight after ascari, but immediately loses that recovered time in parabolica. This compromized exit from Parabolica is the reason he got passed by Piastri into T1, despite the Mclaren's top speed deficit w.r.t Ferrari.
- Verstappen is somewhere in the middle of the Mclarens and Ferrari through S1 & S2 but aces S3, all the way from the ascari chicane, through the back straight, through parabolica to give him a tremendous advantage over the pit straight. This is the reason he passed Norris with ease into T1. What is fascinating from the data, is how the losses through T4-5 chicane and the two lesmos to the McLarens, are minimized, despite the lowDF setup. This is either the new floor of the RB21 lending tremendous balance or Max magic or a combination of both. But it just works.
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/mark ... disbelief/Which is exactly what we saw in that first stint; Verstappen, with no graining, was pulling away, at least a couple of tenths faster than Norris, whose pace was restricted by the graining. That greater front loading on the Red Bull wing was protecting the surface, but putting more heat into the bulk - which after about 30 laps mean the front left was blistering. By which time it didn't matter; he had six seconds over Norris and so could comfortably stop a lap or two later and still be in front.
Thank you for finding this. Yes, this is genuinely promising, Verstappen should be strong in Baku based on this. It looks like the RB21 has evolved beyond being a pure low-downforce specialist. Its improved performance in slower corners too, that's what I was curious about.venkyhere wrote: ↑08 Sep 2025, 19:13Nice Q. Such discussions are what I look forward to, in f1technical, not the "my driver/team v/s your driver/team" ying-yang in team threads where we have to endure 'rival fans' vs 'home fans' verbal diarrhea.pantherxxx wrote: ↑08 Sep 2025, 18:23Do we have any data on Verstappen’s speed through Turns 1–2 and 4–5? Those are the only low-speed corners at Monza, so if he was relatively quick there despite the low-downforce setup compared to the McLarens, that would be very promising. That would indeed indicate the RB21 had strong mechanical grip and balance with the new floor.
Dug into the data a little bit, took a lap somewhere in the middle of the race where all the top4 runners had relatively close enough lap times, and the data is very revealing, and answers your Q, and more - where is each of them 'finding their time' ?
This is lap23 :
https://i.ibb.co/cKv3NhKf/monza-2025-lap23.png
We know the Mclarens were on higher DF than Redbull and Ferrari, the latter two top speed advantage (Ferrari even more so). What the data reveals :
- Nothing to separate all four across the T1-2 chicane, there is a mix of early/late entry/exit, but evens out.
- McLarens are acing S2 (as expected, with their relatively higher downforce setup) and aren't losing much in S1 or S3
- LeClerc is S1 king, his gain is mainly through the curve grande all the way until braking for the 2nd chicane. Thereafter, S2 is a disaster for the Ferrari due to lack of downforce. He recovers a bit of time on the back straight after ascari, but immediately loses that recovered time in parabolica. This compromized exit from Parabolica is the reason he got passed by Piastri into T1, despite the Mclaren's top speed deficit w.r.t Ferrari.
- Verstappen is somewhere in the middle of the Mclarens and Ferrari through S1 & S2 but aces S3, all the way from the ascari chicane, through the back straight, through parabolica to give him a tremendous advantage over the pit straight. This is the reason he passed Norris with ease into T1. What is fascinating from the data, is how the losses through T4-5 chicane and the two lesmos to the McLarens, are minimized, despite the lowDF setup. This is either the new floor of the RB21 lending tremendous balance or Max magic or a combination of both. But it just works.
