Are we seeing a Vettel era?

[bhall]

Ugh. I don't understand this at all. Why does Vettel have to be considered god-like right now?

Does appreciating his skill set require placing him in the pantheon of infallible all-time greats after two World Championships?

And does that rationale then require that Alonso be considered a veritable Zeus for winning back-to-back Championshipships against very stiff competition each time?

Was Schumacher then transcendent of all space and time in 2004?

All of these accolades you're throwing at Vettel will be meted out by everyone, even me, in due time if he keeps this up. Until then, just relax and enjoy the show, fellas. And don't immediately think that people are knocking your hero off the wall when they try to objectively analyze his accomplishments.

[gridwalker]

+1

Eras are all the more pleasurable when they are noted for rivalry and competition (e.g. the Prost-Senna years) : I see nothing to celebrate in an era of domination.

[PlatinumZealot]

Redbull era....most certainly

Ah yes, because both Red Bulls are doing amazing. If it wasn't for Vettel, Red Bull would have still won an amazing 3 races in 2011! Not like the Schumacher era, when it was all Schumacher and Barichello barely ever came second. Oh wait...

vettel era....not on your Nelly, he barely won in '10, didn't even top the standings till the very very end

2010 was more than any other recent season influenced by mechanical faillures. Only counting faillures outside the drivers' grip, Vettel lost 62 points, and would have otherwise won the championship with races to spare, and a total of 63 points ahead of Hamilton.

what you said

Why is the Red Bull considered super fast because Vettel (and only Vettel) is bloody good in it, and is the Ferrari considered a bad car because Massa (and only Massa) is fighting back with the Mercedes' and Renaults?

Hey Webber scored better than Heikki did in 2008 and 2009. And I actually think heikki is faster than Webber (though not as good race craft). The RedBull must be very good. Two WCC back to back. When was the last time I see drivers give up by the 5th race? haha.. All the guys except Webber Gave up by Valencia. The car must be flipping good! haha

[Hail22]

+1

Eras are all the more pleasurable when they are noted for rivalry and competition (e.g. the Prost-Senna years) : I see nothing to celebrate in an era of domination.

Agreed.

Similar to Stirling Moss Vs Fangio

[CHT]

Ugh. I don't understand this at all. Why does Vettel have to be considered god-like right now?

Does appreciating his skill set require placing him in the pantheon of infallible all-time greats after two World Championships?

And does that rationale then require that Alonso be considered a veritable Zeus for winning back-to-back Championshipships against very stiff competition each time?

Was Schumacher then transcendent of all space and time in 2004?

All of these accolades you're throwing at Vettel will be meted out by everyone, even me, in due time if he keeps this up. Until then, just relax and enjoy the show, fellas. And don't immediately think that people are knocking your hero off the wall when they try to objectively analyze his accomplishments.

I am glad that you mention it.

[CHT]

+1

Eras are all the more pleasurable when they are noted for rivalry and competition (e.g. the Prost-Senna years) : I see nothing to celebrate in an era of domination.

I thought the on track rivalry between Webber and Vettel in 2010 was pretty good with Vettel coming from behind in the WDC standing to beat 2 WDCs win his 1st WDC in last race of the season. I remember half way through the 2010 season, people are saying RBR is stupid to throw the championship away. The only thing that is missing of course is there are no french FIA politics involved like in Senna days and Webber hasnt win a WDC.

Beside Prost-Senna years (which we all know is one of the greatest team mate rivalry of all time) which other seasons or drivers do you think fit to be called an ERAS and why.

[RB7ate9]

I'm going to present Jackie Stewart's heyday between 1968 - 1973. Not only were these his prime years for victory not only in individual grand prix but the WDC as well. As part of no less than three different teams (excuse me if Owen or Tyrell or Matra turned into any of the other), he was able to drive to a successful WDC, with his overall record between '65 and '73 as:

3rd, 7th, 9th, 2nd, 1st, 5th, 1st, 2nd, and 1st (ending on a high note).

Demonstrating skill on the field, he was the person to beat, and the person to beat others. During his time, he drove against figures such as Clark, Hunt, Hill, Fittipaldi, Mclaren, Rindt, Lauda. These names are all legends in and of themselves, and Stewart tussled with them all.

Another aspect that contributes to an "era" that matches Stewart is how he changed the sport as they knew it. Before, men were men and relied on their tungsten balls for ballast and crash structure. During and after Stewart's contributions to safety, fewer and fewer chances were taken with driver's lives. His insistence throughout his driving career in addition to his skills on the track, to me, define the "Post-Clark" time period before the mid-70's.

Please feel free to comment on any factual errors.

(edited for ridiculously contrived statement)

[mnmracer]

Ugh. I don't understand this at all. Why does Vettel have to be considered god-like right now?

Does appreciating his skill set require placing him in the pantheon of infallible all-time greats after two World Championships?

And does that rationale then require that Alonso be considered a veritable Zeus for winning back-to-back Championshipships against very stiff competition each time?

Was Schumacher then transcendent of all space and time in 2004?

All of these accolades you're throwing at Vettel will be meted out by everyone, even me, in due time if he keeps this up. Until then, just relax and enjoy the show, fellas. And don't immediately think that people are knocking your hero off the wall when they try to objectively analyze his accomplishments.

That there is exactly the problem. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you might not see or realise it, but the discussion is often far from objective, with Vettel being held to standards the other drivers aren't. For instance:

• Vettel is critized for only winning from the front, while Lewis hasn't won from anywhere lower than p4 either, and in 10 years, Alonso has also only won from 'not the front' 3 times. Of Schumacher's 91 victories, only 6 were not from the front. Senna won only two races from 'not the front'.
• Vettel is critized for not being able to 'fight through the field', which doesn't only ignore his back-to-front charges in the Torro Rosso, but also ignores that Hamilton is pretty crash-happy when not in the front, and Alonso doesn't seem to fare so well either when he's stuck behind a Russian or almost any mid-field car in 2007.
• Vettel is critized for cracking under pressure, while he has 'cracked under pressure' far less than Hamilton, even pre-2011, and pretty similarly with Alonso.
• Almost any time, Vettel's achievements in 2011 are put down to the RB7, who's speed is measured by Vettel, not Webber. However, when discussing Alonso/Ferrari, the 'car speed' is suddenly measured by Massa, not Alonso, and the Spaniard is considered to "heroicly outdrive the Ferrari".
• Vettel is critized for not having proven himself against a good team mate, which doesn't only unfairly put down Webber, who was considered a qualifying specialist for the first seven years of his F1 career, but also completely ignores that the only 'top drivers' Alonso and Hamilton have proven themselves against, are Alonso and Hamilton.

It has nothing to do with considering Vettel god-like, but simply with getting the acknowledgment a great driver deserves, in this case Vettel, although I (and many with me) would fight just as hard for Alonso and Hamilton if they were treated like Vettel was.

[beelsebob]

Almost any time, Vettel's achievements in 2011 are put down to the RB7, who's speed is measured by Vettel, not Webber. However, when discussing Alonso/Ferrari, the 'car speed' is suddenly measured by Massa, not Alonso, and the Spaniard is considered to "heroicly outdrive the Ferrari".

You have a lot of fair points, but I'll give you an insight into why this one's false – the speed is measured against other drivers of comparable(ish) standard... We measure Vettel's performances against other WDCs in other teams, and we measure Webber's performances against other mediocre solid drivers in the other teams.

The result – in 2011, the WDC in the RB7 was significantly faster than either WDC in the McLaren, and much faster than the WDC in the Ferrari. Similarly, in 2011, the mid-range driver in the RB7 was much faster than the mid-range driver (unfortunately that's what Massa is now) in the Ferrari. I have absolutely no doubt that if you put any of Button, Hamilton or Alonso in Vettel's seat last year, they would have won the WDC.

Vettel is critized for not having proven himself against a good team mate, which doesn't only unfairly put down Webber, who was considered a qualifying specialist for the first seven years of his F1 career, but also completely ignores that the only 'top drivers' Alonso and Hamilton have proven themselves against, are Alonso and Hamilton.

I'm not sure that this is a criticism, so much as an observation – We can see that Hamilton and Alonso are (or were) very much on a par, because when put in similar or the same cars, they performed very similarly. Unfortunately, we can't do the same with Vettel, this is a shame, because it would allow us to more accurately gauge how much of a driver he really is.

[raymondu999]

Isn't that assuming that the WDCs being compared are all of the same ability level, or at the very least, in the same ballpark?

Which kind of nullifies the initial argument in the first place, no?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

+1

Eras are all the more pleasurable when they are noted for rivalry and competition (e.g. the Prost-Senna years) : I see nothing to celebrate in an era of domination.

I Agree. Schumacher did have Hakkinen to contend with for a few years until the McLaren couldn't keep up any more. In my opinion Mika was underrated as a great driver. We all knew he was good, but in terms of outright balls to the wall speed he was amazing.

Vettel has the benefit of the best car in the field the last 2 years running, but he brought the bacon home when he needed to in 2010 and dominated in 2011. I cannot remeber anyone in the last 25 years winning a WDC that didnt have the best car.
Hakkinen, Senna, Villenuve, Prost, Schumacher, Hamilton, Alonso, Mansell, Hill and Raikkonen all benefited from the best machinery.

If the RB8 is as fast as it looks during testing....Vettel will have WDC number 3 because he has momentum, experience and the best team(read tailor made for him to dominate from within)behind him.

I want to see Vettel work hard for number 3. He did for number 1 but that was in no small part through all the points he lost due to reliability. He's already sounded out McLaren as looking good...I want to see more Button/Vettel/Hamilton scraps and would be great to see if the Ferrari's and MErcs could chime in with a battle or two.

[beelsebob]

Isn't that assuming that the WDCs being compared are all of the same ability level, or at the very least, in the same ballpark?

Which kind of nullifies the initial argument in the first place, no?

Yes it does – the point being that we can't really see any evidence to say whether Vettel is above, below or equal to the other WDCs on the grid, hence I don't like to say "we are seeing a Vettel era" until I see if he's actually better than the other drivers on the grid

For what it's worth – history seems to show that when you get top class drivers, they all hit roughly the same level. Hamilton and Alonso in equal machinery came out within inches, same with Prost and Senna, same with Hill and Schumacher. It would be interesting to see Vettel and one of the other top 4 get in the same car, unfortunately, I don't think we'll get that pleasure for a while – Mataschitz clearly has a hard-on for Vettel, and wants a solid support driver in the second car.

[bhall]

[Your statements]

Aside from acknowledging that the RB7 was a great car, I'm not critical of Vettel in any of those ways. I don't knock Vettel for winning from the front; I don't knock Vettel for not having to "fight through the field" or for having "cracked under pressure"; I don't even fault him for his teammate.

He's done what he's supposed to do. What more can you expect?

Objectively: By any metric, the RB7 was a brilliant car, an all-time great; that cannot be rationally denied. (I strongly urge Vettel supporters to stop trying. It detracts credibility from anything else you say on this subject. Trust me.)

Much like the F2004 was Byrne/Brawn/Ferrari handing Schumacher the 2004 World Championship on a silver platter, RB7 was Adrian Newey/Red Bull likewise presenting Vettel with the 2011 World Championship. And to his credit, he took it. It's not automatically given that the best car wins it all (see: MP4-22).

If you detect a difference in how Schumacher's 2004 Championship was treated versus how Vettel's 2011 Championship is being treated, it's only because Schumacher's 2004 victory was his fifth in as many years and seventh overall. That's silencing critics with quantity when it can't be done with quality.

Otherwise, Vettel is still in the early stages of his career and simply has not been presented with the opportunity to display some of the attributes that most people use when they judge a driver's worth. It's only for that reason that some folks - like me - are hesitant to lavish upon him the praise that others seem so willing to give away.

I want my words to mean something, and they just don't when they're fraught with hyperbole.

[mnmracer]

[Your statements]

Aside from acknowledging that the RB7 was a great car, I'm not critical of Vettel in any of those ways. I don't knock Vettel for winning from the front; I don't knock Vettel for not having to "fight through the field" or for having "cracked under pressure"; I don't even fault him for his teammate.

Than I guess we're not on opposite sides of this.
That's the messed up thing about this though; usually a detractor starts a stupid argument or takes the 'great car' excuse and runs with it, which annoys me, which in turn makes you think I have a different agenda etc. I do want to keep those statements on record though, since they will often come back.

Objectively: By any metric, the RB7 was a brilliant car, an all-time great.

Yes and no. It's undeniable that Vettel would not have taken all the records if the RB7 wasn't brilliant, but it wasn't a FW14B, F2002 or F2004. Those cars had no contention. Take the FW14B, which was on average 0.97 seconds faster in qualifying. The RB7 had a 0.16 second average advantage. In 2002, Barrichello won more races than Webber got second places, and in 2004, Barrichello won as many races as Webber got second places last year, but only because Schumacher. Those cars were undeniable the fastest car on the track in almost every race, while most agree that the McLaren had an advantage over the RB7 in a lot of races.

Was the RB7 a great car? Without a doubt. Was it miles off the rest of the field, without competition and could any decent driver win the championship with it, like the FW14B, F2002 and F2004? No, I do not think so and the facts seem to support that. Mark Webber certainly couldn't, and what he has done in his career deserves more than to be put away as an average driver.

While maybe Alonso could have had a similair performance, I think he would have lost more points in races where the McLarens had the advantage. Hamilton I believe could have definitely not repeated that performance. World Champion? Yes, but not in the way Vettel did.

This whole 'Vettel is god or not' things discredits the discussion. Vettel is not god, and has not yet shown to be as good as Senna and Schunacher, but he is definitely doing things others couldn't and I think in similair points in their careers, he is as good as Senna and Schumacher, albeit either in their own best skillset. The question is, will he keep growing to be on par, or surpass them, at their best.

[shelly]

I agree with mnmracer on the fact that th rb7 was not as dominant as cars like f2004, f2002, mp4-4 or fw14b.