Chinese GP 2010 - Shanghai

[Poleman]

I can imagine how much fun the team spent cleaning out all the gravel and dirt!

How is the steering wheel turned to the right but the wheels pointing forwards?

I think he is just counter-steering.

[myurr]

I can imagine how much fun the team spent cleaning out all the gravel and dirt!

How is the steering wheel turned to the right but the wheels pointing forwards?

I think he is just counter-steering.

He's actually turning to his left, and the wheels are pointing to the left. The camera angle is disguising it to some degree. In fact if you look at where the stones flicked up by the front wheel are going, they're heading straight into the side pods which shows the angle the wheel is at.

[Just_a_fan]

The one incident that was actually fully against the rules was Alonso's move on Massa. He went from being behind to in front of Massa by cutting the same bit of the corner that several others did. He also caused Massa to have to leave the track. Both of those would normally be worthy of comment by the stewards if they occured out on the 'main' part of the track.

Hamilton pulled an identical pass on Vettel

No. There was a big difference. Hamilton and Vettel entered the pitlane side by side. Alonso entered behind Massa. Hamilton was on the inside as they got to the bend in the pitlane entry and so had 'track position' in the usual sense. Hamilton did not therefore 'gain an advantage' in the way that Alonso did. Hamilton did not force Vettel on to the grass/gravel. Alonso did.

However, I think the stewards played it right. In neither case was there any real danger and to have imposed the "don't cross the white line" rule fully would have meant several (all?) drivers being penalised which would have made F1 look like a farce again.

[andartop]

For the sake of the argument, what would/should have happened if under similar circumstances the driver who was following Vettel's line down the straight and into the hairpin did not intend to pit?

a) They would have crashed and nobody would be at fault as it would be a racing incident?
b) They would have crashed and one of the two would have been to blame?
b) He should have braked to allow the other car enter the pits first, then continue on the racing line?
c) He should have kept the inside since he did not intend to pit? If so, would that be an indication that the other car should not have pitted as it was following the inside line?
d) The other car should have stayed on the outside since he planned to go in the pits?
e) The other car should have braked almost to a standstill to allow the driver on the outside continue to the exit of the hairpin and then go in the pit entry?
f) He wouldn't have a choice but to pit even if he did not want to to avoid being overtaken or crash?

[Richard]

Oh my gosh, the pit lane debate is still rumbling. I'm also amazed that people want explicit hard rules for every scenario. The rules for this are covered by general rules about safety and unfair advantage.

The stewards are probably taking the line that previous examples when unpunished, so this time they could only say "that's something we don't want to see any more". That sets a precedent that such behaviour is deemed unsafe. Henceforth, all drivers know that new interpretation/clarification.

I expect that the drivers will be told in the next briefing how to behave in the pit lane and that any future infringement will incur a drive through penalty. Once they have been explicitly told, then there is no chance of leniency.

[Just_a_fan]

Oh my gosh, the pit lane debate is still rumbling. I'm also amazed that people want explicit hard rules for every scenario. The rules for this are covered by general rules about safety and unfair advantage.

The stewards are probably taking the line that previous examples when unpunished, so this time they could only say "that's something we don't want to see any more". That sets a precedent that such behaviour is deemed unsafe. Henceforth, all drivers know that new interpretation/clarification.

I expect that the drivers will be told in the next briefing how to behave in the pit lane and that any future infringement will incur a drive through penalty. Once they have been explicitly told, then there is no chance of leniency.

Agreed.

[komninosm]

Apart form a bit of hoo-haa at the start, I was bored by the race. I missed a bus to watch the end of the recorded race from silly o'clock in the morning - won't be making that mistake again!

What?! Are you being serious? That was one of the most exciting and unpredictable races for yonks!!!

After the first few laps it kind of died down. Yes, it was the best race so far, but it is the best of a bad lot sadly.

Hopefully the European rounds at the older tracks will be better. [-o<

I thought the first few laps were the boring ones with the safety car and the stupid pit stops. Then we had real racing with Ham passing everyone and even Vettel and Webber putting a good show. Just who did you want to see doing passes? Are you just trolling?

[komninosm]

Again Seg, see my post in the other thread. The white line in the rules separates the race track from the pitlane, you will notice the white line we are questioning here actually separates the pitlane from OFF TRACK area.

No, sorry I'm afraid you're just stirring - 'again'. The above rule quoted applies equally to pit lane exit and entry. You're really scraping the barrel with that 'off-track' bullshit. It means nothing, and intentionally so, but I'm afraid that's the only place you have left to go with that one. Much like Lewis really.

Therefore, according to the rules you can't pass another driver off the track, and unfortunately, when Lewis passed, he was not entirely off tracks.

I'd like to know where you get this fantasy from, but as you've just admitted Hamilton was in an off-track area anyway (I'm afraid you'll find pictures that proves that Lewis was firmly out of the pit lane and therefore off-track according to you) and maintained his track position because of it - so should he have given back the place to Vettel? Cheers, I hadn't thought of that one.

This is my logic, what is yours?

Well, you jumped up and down demanding a rule clarification from me as to where my evidence was. It was provided by someone several pages back in that thread that no one read. You have nothing to back up what you're claiming apart from conjecture and your own bizarre interpretation of other rules which you don't quote.

Technically when you pass someone by going off track all you have to do is give back position by next corner right? Well technically Hamilton did give position back by the next corner didn't he? Alonso didn't.
Seriously though I think the pit entry passes were kinda dangerous and it was just unfortunate that 2 cars had gone side by side on the straight leading to the pits and there was little to be done about it. Fortunately there was no crash.
But what was really avoidable and idiotic was the red mist actions of Vettel which endangered the pit crews. It has never happened before (see 2004 Montoya Vs Rai, or 2008 Germany Vettel and Alonso, etc) and it should have been heavily fined. And it infuriates me how some people in this thread are not admitting it.

[komninosm]

[...] If Ham was clearly behind Vettel as you say then Vettel's moving to the inside would not affect Ham since he was behind, he could stay in the mid of the pit lane and let Vettel veer right alone. But FACTS are Ham was side by side with Vettel (at best 1/2 a car behind) so he WAS indeed pushed out. [...]

[komninosm]

Vettel was entitled to move across the lane because the position was his.

Moving across the track in a way to crowd another driver off the track is against the rules (and in this case was potentially very dangerous).

He was ahead.

They were running side by side along a straight bit of track...

You cannot follow another car down the pitlane, pull into the pitbox area and expect another driver to move over for you and let you alongside and then whinge when he is disinclined to do that.

Hamilton hasn't moaned about anything has he? Vettel made a comment after the race and suggested that he was worried about tyre damage because of Hamilton's actions. But Vettel moved across in to Hamilton and then Vettel moans about it...

That's just nuts, as I said and double-standards when it comes to Hamilton really.

What double standards? This is a single incident.

In previous examples that we've seen all drivers have ended up pulling out of their respective pitboxes so that they're virtually together and they have no real choice but to give room to each other. This is the first time we've seen a driver make a slow get away out of his pit box, end up behind and then try and pull alongside in an attempt to overtake, because it can't be for anything else.

Er, no. There have been a number of cases of drivers driving side by side down the pit lane. And there is no rule that one can't overtake in the pitlane.

No no no don't confuse him with facts! =D>

You're very deluded I'm afraid." - Segedunum
"It's utter brain damage, and you know it." - Segedunum
"You people are nuts. Seriously." - Segedunum
"As you well know, this is meaningless bullshit." - Segedunum
"You clearly have no idea what you're talking about." - Segedunum
"No, sorry I'm afraid you're just stirring - 'again'." - Segedunum
"I'd like to know where you get this fantasy from" - Segedunum

[myurr]

Video of the incident: http://vimeo.com/11018282

If Hamilton hadn't had the tank slapper when he tried to rejoin and then avoid Vettel he would have been pretty much exactly side by side. He lost half a car length because of this.

Vettel, unlike any other driver in this situation in any previous race then moves to his right to the point of touching Hamiltons front tyre with his side pod.

This is probably just going to stoke things up again (sorry!), but for me there is only one important point: had Vettel stayed left, as has every other driver in this situation including races where Vettel has been the driver on the inside and has thus benefited, then we wouldn't still be talking about this.

Rightly or wrongly there is no rule regarding being side by side down the pitlane, only a rule that you must allow room for your competitors on the track and not through your driving force another car off the track. Had Vettel not been in breach of this rule through pushing Hamilton off track (equally dangerous at 200mph down the back straight as it is at 60mph in the pit lane) then this would have been a non-incident.

[KingOfBrampton]

Been reading these boards for a while, first time post.....

I know it's been done to death, but there's one question about the Hamilton/Vettel pitlane incident I haven't seen asked. If two cars exited the pitlane side-by-side, assuming there is enough width, and if they crossed the exit line together and so switched off their rev limiters simultaneously, which one (at Shanghai) would have the advantage?

My point being, was Vettel defending the advantageous side i.e. the right. If the advantage would have been gained by being on the left on the way out of the pitlane, perhaps he would have tolerated Hamilton alongside.

Regarding Hamilton backing off having found himself (more or less) alongside Vettel, I wouldn't have thought he would want to do that until he was pretty sure that his left front wheel wasn't going to collide with Vettel's right rear.

[andrew]

I thought the first few laps were the boring ones with the safety car and the stupid pit stops. Then we had real racing with Ham passing everyone and even Vettel and Webber putting a good show. Just who did you want to see doing passes? Are you just trolling?

Not trolling no but whant I want to see is close and correct racing. There was a bit of excitement caused by the safety car and a few last minute wild pitstops then it died until the end of the race (ok there was the odd blip). I've never really found the Shanghai circuit to be too exciting compared to some of the other circuits. Just my personnal opinion, that's all.

Spain should be good though. Hopefully the rain will stay away and there will be a normal race at last! [-o<

[myurr]

Been reading these boards for a while, first time post.....

I know it's been done to death, but there's one question about the Hamilton/Vettel pitlane incident I haven't seen asked. If two cars exited the pitlane side-by-side, assuming there is enough width, and if they crossed the exit line together and so switched off their rev limiters simultaneously, which one (at Shanghai) would have the advantage?

My point being, was Vettel defending the advantageous side i.e. the right. If the advantage would have been gained by being on the left on the way out of the pitlane, perhaps he would have tolerated Hamilton alongside.

Regarding Hamilton backing off having found himself (more or less) alongside Vettel, I wouldn't have thought he would want to do that until he was pretty sure that his left front wheel wasn't going to collide with Vettel's right rear.

If they were exactly alongside each other then the inside line would be advantageous. In this instance with Vettel being half a car length ahead then he would be able to turn off the pit limited half a car length before Hamilton so would have held the advantage even if he had given Hamilton room. He had no reason, really, to be so aggressive.

[andrew]

Been reading these boards for a while, first time post.....

I know it's been done to death, but there's one question about the Hamilton/Vettel pitlane incident I haven't seen asked. If two cars exited the pitlane side-by-side, assuming there is enough width, and if they crossed the exit line together and so switched off their rev limiters simultaneously, which one (at Shanghai) would have the advantage?

My point being, was Vettel defending the advantageous side i.e. the right. If the advantage would have been gained by being on the left on the way out of the pitlane, perhaps he would have tolerated Hamilton alongside.

Regarding Hamilton backing off having found himself (more or less) alongside Vettel, I wouldn't have thought he would want to do that until he was pretty sure that his left front wheel wasn't going to collide with Vettel's right rear.

If they were exactly alongside each other then the inside line would be advantageous. In this instance with Vettel being half a car length ahead then he would be able to turn off the pit limited half a car length before Hamilton so would have held the advantage even if he had given Hamilton room. He had no reason, really, to be so aggressive.

+1

I would say that Vettel had "right of way" as he was where he should have been plus Vettel was ahead by about half a car length. Where Vettel shot himself in the foot was when he moved over to the left, not helping his case any bit.