Red Bull and Lotus to protest Mercedes f-duct

[snoop1050]

Whether the Mercedes system is legal or not is probably down to 'glass half full/half empty', depending on the point of view and which camp someone is in. Arguably, both answers are correct at the same time. A conundrum indeed. There is however a bigger problem and one which is, amazingly, not front of mind on this current issue. F1 is about using 'grey areas'. That's what we love about the sport. Although in this instance it's not good for the show and the wider implications that it allows, namely, Mercedes have designed and built a top QUALIFYING car.

When a Mercedes is on the first couple of spots on race day, reality sets in that they're going to hold up the other cars in the race - and ruin what could be an awesome display of truly competitive RACING up the front. While many enjoy watching F1 cars passing on the track, the fact that a 'qualifying grey area' has directly resulted in purposely designed qualifying cars holding up faster race designed cars and potentially destroying what could have a been a closer contest up the front on race day, is frustrating to view and not in the spirit of pure racing. Exploit the grey areas, by all means, but for race trim. That is why all the changes have been made isn't it, to show a better race?

The better question to ask would be "why are we allowing a limited use race overtaking feature to be 100% active in a qualifying scenario?".

Limit DRS to the applicable track race zone(s) in qualifying - problem solved. Back to finding grey areas to exploit for racing.

better make sure the cars behind RBR cant get a better start off the grid and overtake them into the first corner aswell

[Maelstrom]

Whether the Mercedes system is legal or not is probably down to 'glass half full/half empty', depending on the point of view and which camp someone is in. Arguably, both answers are correct at the same time. A conundrum indeed. There is however a bigger problem and one which is, amazingly, not front of mind on this current issue. F1 is about using 'grey areas'. That's what we love about the sport. Although in this instance it's not good for the show and the wider implications that it allows, namely, Mercedes have designed and built a top QUALIFYING car.

When a Mercedes is on the first couple of spots on race day, reality sets in that they're going to hold up the other cars in the race - and ruin what could be an awesome display of truly competitive RACING up the front. While many enjoy watching F1 cars passing on the track, the fact that a 'qualifying grey area' has directly resulted in purposely designed qualifying cars holding up faster race designed cars and potentially destroying what could have a been a closer contest up the front on race day, is frustrating to view and not in the spirit of pure racing. Exploit the grey areas, by all means, but for race trim. That is why all the changes have been made isn't it, to show a better race?

The better question to ask would be "why are we allowing a limited use race overtaking feature to be 100% active in a qualifying scenario?".

Limit DRS to the applicable track race zone(s) in qualifying - problem solved. Back to finding grey areas to exploit for racing.

better make sure the cars behind RBR cant get a better start off the grid and overtake them into the first corner aswell

+1

You're talking like Mercedes is slow like HRT. If their tyre issues are sorted they should routinely give competition to the front runners. RBR should just get over themselves. If they have a issue with the F-Duct they should just file a complaint and get on with it instead of dragging it out for ages and playing their games. Honestly the more I see of their behavior this year the more disgusted I am.

[kris]

Could it be that redbull is using the clarification strategy to get more details and better understand how the system works by using carefully worded questions?

They probably do not want to lodge a protest because they might not get any info once they lodge it and the FIA rules on it.

This clarification strategy hinders Mercs from developing it further (they could invest more resources if they knew for sure that it is legal and others have no qualms about it), but also helps RBR develop the concept or a find a better concept by working in the background.

[Maelstrom]

Could it be that redbull is using the clarification strategy to get more details and better understand how the system works by using carefully worded questions?

They probably do not want to lodge a protest because they might not get any info once they lodge it and the FIA rules on it.

This clarification strategy hinders Mercs from developing it further (they could invest more resources if they knew for sure that it is legal and others have no qualms about it), but also helps RBR develop the concept or a find a better concept by working in the background.

If this is indeed the case (and i'm not saying it is) then it's sad to see a team that dominated the last two years playing such tactics.

[Cam]

The issue is designing a car to be fast while qualifying by using an overtaking system provided for racing. The Mercedes car is designed to run faster in qualifying by exploiting the DRS with F-Duct - this much we know. Mercedes could have the DRS and F-Duct on, for the entire qualifying lap. That same trick cannot be used in the race to achieve anywhere near the same results (as DRS is restricted to 1 or 2 zones). So the an qualifying result is always skewed.

A precedent is now set and awaiting further exploit. For example: HRT (or similar) should forget race pace. Instead, invest in getting the fastest lap possible by exploiting DRS with F-Duct(s) wide open all round the track during qualifying. It'll be a one lap bullet. Making it the stand-out qualifying car. They'll be seconds ahead of the nearest competitor. Think of the news headlines and media exposure. HRT lock out the front row.

This may be a hypothetical situation taken to it's extreme, however Mercedes have already started down this road……is this what we want from F1? With the current usage of DRS allowed for the entire lap during qualifying, this is what F1 is turning into.

Limit DRS (and any legal F-Ducts) in qualifying to the relevant zones only, the same as the race. Is this not reasonable?

[Maelstrom]

The issue is designing a car to be fast while qualifying by using an overtaking system provided for racing. The Mercedes car is designed to run faster in qualifying by exploiting the DRS with F-Duct - this much we know. Mercedes could have the DRS and F-Duct on, for the entire qualifying lap. That same trick cannot be used in the race to achieve anywhere near the same results (as DRS is restricted to 1 or 2 zones). So the an qualifying result is always skewed.

A precedent is now set and awaiting further exploit. For example: HRT (or similar) should forget race pace. Instead, invest in getting the fastest lap possible by exploiting DRS with F-Duct(s) wide open all round the track during qualifying. It'll be a one lap bullet. Making it the stand-out qualifying car. They'll be seconds ahead of the nearest competitor. Think of the news headlines and media exposure. HRT lock out the front row.

This may be a hypothetical situation taken to it's extreme, however Mercedes have already started down this road……is this what we want from F1? With the current usage of DRS allowed for the entire lap during qualifying, this is what F1 is turning into.

Limit DRS (and any legal F-Ducts) in qualifying to the relevant zones only, the same as the race. Is this not reasonable?

Again I say.. Mercs are having issues with the tyres that aren't allowing them to show their race pace. Or else they might be as fast as any of the front runners. The timings during winter testing prove they weren't slow. If they have got an innovation that allows them some more speed during qualifying I see no problem with it.

As to the HRT thing. I don't see how a car that couldn't qualify within the 107% during the first race would possibly lock out front row. The reason Merc is good at qualifying now is not only because of the F-Duct but also because it is a genuinely fast car with a lot of potential.

I can understand where you are coming from but your argument seems illogical. Specially when you use bad examples.

[Cam]

"I can understand where you are coming from but your argument seems illogical. Specially when you use bad examples."

Limiting DRS in qualifying to the same zone as the race, is illogical? How so?

[Maelstrom]

"I can understand where you are coming from but your argument seems illogical. Specially when you use bad examples."

Limiting DRS in qualifying to the same zone as the race, is illogical? How so?

If you are so set on race pace then why stop with the DRS? Let them qualify on full fuel tanks. The rules were there much before Merc came up with their innovation. Should the rule be changed? Sure... let them change it next year. But till then it's sour grapes to bitch about an innovation that a team has come up with to help their performance which is perfectly legal.

[Cam]

"I can understand where you are coming from but your argument seems illogical. Specially when you use bad examples."

Limiting DRS in qualifying to the same zone as the race, is illogical? How so?

If you are so set on race pace then why stop with the DRS? Let them qualify on full fuel tanks. The rules were there much before Merc came up with their innovation. Should the rule be changed? Sure... let them change it next year. But till then it's sour grapes to bitch about an innovation that a team has come up with to help their performance which is perfectly legal.

It's interesting you say that about sour grapes - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/14092523

Each team will, and will always nit pick at each other developments, that's F1 - and Mercedes is not new to this either, so please keep that in perspective. Mercedes is not pure, no team is.

Your suggestion on qualifying on full tanks is nice. The quickest race car should start on pole, not the quickest qualifying car and the current DRS with F-Duct is fore qualifying mainly - that's my point. The current DRS F-Duct is allowing slower qualifiers up the grid. Send the cars out in full race trim on race spec, do a quick lap. That solves a lot of issues.

It would be interesting to do a 'Silverstone' and get Mercedes to disable the F-Duct for a race....... would you agree?

[megz]

"I can understand where you are coming from but your argument seems illogical. Specially when you use bad examples."

Limiting DRS in qualifying to the same zone as the race, is illogical? How so?

If you are so set on race pace then why stop with the DRS? Let them qualify on full fuel tanks. The rules were there much before Merc came up with their innovation. Should the rule be changed? Sure... let them change it next year. But till then it's sour grapes to bitch about an innovation that a team has come up with to help their performance which is perfectly legal.

It's interesting you say that about sour grapes - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/14092523

Each team will, and will always nit pick at each other developments, that's F1 - and Mercedes is not new to this either, so please keep that in perspective. Mercedes is not pure, no team is.

Your suggestion on qualifying on full tanks is nice. The quickest race car should start on pole, not the quickest qualifying car and the current DRS with F-Duct is fore qualifying mainly - that's my point. The current DRS F-Duct is allowing slower qualifiers up the grid. Send the cars out in full race trim on race spec, do a quick lap. That solves a lot of issues.

It would be interesting to do a 'Silverstone' and get Mercedes to disable the F-Duct for a race....... would you agree?

Would you also like to retro-actively complain about the old super-edgy qualifying engines of the turbo era routinely pushed up to 1200+bhp but only capable of working for all of a handful of laps?

Or banning the use of the softer compound tyre during quali because then cars that don't belong in Q2 or Q3 occasionally get in using the softer quicker tyre than the faster teams who don't?

If you put the fastest race car on pole you will see the fastest race car win the race baring any reliability issues (and assuming the driver points in identical performances). That would be a boring race.

I must agree with those who point out the passiveness of the system. It is assumed to be activated by the DRS flap being open, not the button being pushed. If you made a venn diagram you see these things are mutually exclusive.

[myurr]

"I can understand where you are coming from but your argument seems illogical. Specially when you use bad examples."

Limiting DRS in qualifying to the same zone as the race, is illogical? How so?

Because it wouldn't work. Teams would then disregard DRS entirely and gear their cars as if DRS was not on the car at all. The only reason that DRS is available in qualifying at all is so that teams don't ignore it. Setting your car up to get the most from DRS means that you sacrifice a little bit of race pace.

[myurr]

Your suggestion on qualifying on full tanks is nice. The quickest race car should start on pole, not the quickest qualifying car and the current DRS with F-Duct is fore qualifying mainly - that's my point.

Since when has that ever led to good racing? If the cars all qualify in race pace order then you see a procession as they all just drive off in that order. Heck why even bother with the race if qualifying is designed to sort them into race order?

Good racing comes from cars qualifying out of position, mistakes being made, and the relative pace of cars varying throughout the race. These are some of the reasons that wet races end up being so exciting, the lack of grip and change in aerodynamics from the tyres tends to mean that differences between the cars and drivers are exaggerated.

[Maelstrom]

Your suggestion on qualifying on full tanks is nice. The quickest race car should start on pole, not the quickest qualifying car and the current DRS with F-Duct is fore qualifying mainly - that's my point.

Since when has that ever led to good racing? If the cars all qualify in race pace order then you see a procession as they all just drive off in that order. Heck why even bother with the race if qualifying is designed to sort them into race order?

Good racing comes from cars qualifying out of position, mistakes being made, and the relative pace of cars varying throughout the race. These are some of the reasons that wet races end up being so exciting, the lack of grip and change in aerodynamics from the tyres tends to mean that differences between the cars and drivers are exaggerated.

+1

My point exactly.

The fastest car doesn't always win anyways. Case in point last race where Alonso won. And the way you're talking they should probably do away with the midfielders and backmarkers entirely. Lets just have the top three teams race each other since they are the fastest.

F1 is more than just speed. Its also driver ability, team tactics and planning, weather, and a whole load of luck too.

And thats the fun part. If the fastest car or the one with the fastest race pace always won then where would be the competition? There'd be no excitement.