2011 18" tyres...

[WhiteBlue]

...whenever i think off a wheel breaking loose and flying through the air, It's much safer to be hit by a 13" wheel that has mostly rubber on it, than to be hit with a 18" piece of metal.

If you get hit by a wheel it makes no difference if the diameter is 13 or 18 inches. You are most likely dead as young Henry Surtees. But there is the argument that low profile wheels will bounce a lot less and therefore the tendency of wheels to run away and hit cars on the track is much reduced.

[roost89]

Cars would see the weight increase in weight by up to 33KG on the ammount of added material needed

That's interesting. Answers a question I was going to ask.
How much of a difference will this make the un-sprung mass? I Thought it'd remain the same as the rubber not used would be similar to the weight of the added metals. The difference is
about 8kg per wheel.

I have to say, they look ghastly those tyres! Far too big, the 13s are nice (got 13s on my car, so I effectively run F1 wheels )
I think a median can be made, maybe 15 or 16s?

[godlameroso]

What do you think about the possibility of tire/wheel diameters increasing to 18" for next season. Personally I think it will lead to a complete redesign of the cars. As they are now, the 13" wheel/tires give the cars a certain proportion, and I think with larger wheels the cars will look...well dumb. But that's just me, what do you guys think?

[ESPImperium]

Personally i think that F1 and ALMS and all forms of top motorsport should aggree on a 16" wheel for the reason that its the most commonly used on the road by the general public. I have 14" wheels, but i drive a small car, but most of the Mondeos, Civics and Golfs to the 5 Series and C Class executives use pretty much a common 15" or 16" wheel. I think that a 16" wheel would be the common one, most transferable to the "mass market" if you are gonna put a marketing/PR spin on things. And as for a technichal challange, the car wouldnt have to be altered as much as the 18" rims would have, as well as the unsprung mass, it would be something like 25-27KG per car, not as much as 33KG with 18" rims, but still enough to have an effect.

Id expect an announcement before, or at Barcelona for the new manufacturer and tyre regs and such.

[mx_tifoso]

Personally i think that F1 and ALMS and all forms of top motorsport should aggree on a 16" wheel for the reason that its the most commonly used on the road by the general public.

Ugh. Why does F1 have to coordinate it's efforts with other series and road cars? What's the point? Please don't anyone comeback with the "synergy" talk. Jersey Tom has been the most prominent in proving over and over again that this is not necessary nor realistic.

F1 ≠ ALMS = road cars

[xpensive]

Personally i think that F1 and ALMS and all forms of top motorsport should aggree on a 16" wheel for the reason that its the most commonly used on the road by the general public.

Ugh. Why does F1 have to coordinate it's efforts with other series and road cars? What's the point? Please don't anyone comeback with the "synergy" talk. Jersey Tom has been the most prominent in proving over and over again that this is not necessary nor realistic.

F1 ≠ ALMS = road cars

I think it makes perfect sense saluted moderator, when the future of F1 is enclosed bodywork anyway. Open wheel cars is an anachronism which should have been buried and forgotten long time ago, as the aerodynamic penalty is too much to pay in a conciousness of energy savings.

[WhiteBlue]

Jersey Tom has been the most prominent in proving over and over again that this is not necessary nor realistic.

I can't remember that he has proved anything like that. If I remember right he just made a bunch of assertions. To prove something like that you have to review a bunch of business data that nobody would reveal to this forum.

[mx_tifoso]

I think it makes perfect sense saluted moderator, when the future of F1 is enclosed bodywork anyway. Open wheel cars is an anachronism which should have been buried and forgotten long time ago, as the aerodynamic penalty is too much to pay in a conciousness of energy savings.

Well if that's the case shouldn't it be scrapped all together and LMS prototypes take its place as the pinnacle? Because aren't F1 cars just open wheel prototypes?

Anyways, my pov is highly influenced by my subjective feelings towards motorsport.

I can't remember that he has proved anything like that. If I remember right he just made a bunch of assertions. To prove something like that you have to review a bunch of business data that nobody would reveal to this forum.

From what's available to the public and possibly at his disposal I would guess that he has gotten further than most and also kept more in line with what F1 should continue to be; a bespoke series, tyres and all.

[xpensive]

I think it makes perfect sense saluted moderator, when the future of F1 is enclosed bodywork anyway. Open wheel cars is an anachronism which should have been buried and forgotten long time ago, as the aerodynamic penalty is too much to pay in a conciousness of energy savings.

Well if that's the case shouldn't it be scrapped all together and LMS prototypes take its place as the pinnacle? Because aren't F1 cars just open wheel prototypes?
...

Just cover those 18" wheels at a 2000 mm trackwidth and I can die a happy man, like CanAm II a long time ago.
Btw, I know Ciro agrees with me, he always does, or so I've heard.

[xxChrisxx]

I think it makes perfect sense saluted moderator, when the future of F1 is enclosed bodywork anyway. Open wheel cars is an anachronism which should have been buried and forgotten long time ago, as the aerodynamic penalty is too much to pay in a conciousness of energy savings.

Why not just watch sportscars then?

It's utter bullshit this talk of energy savings and making things all the --- same. Tell me, what would be the difference between watching sports prototypes and 'future f1' if they are both closed wheel (possibly closed cockpit). What do you do to all the lower formula? Do you make them closed wheel?

Why not just go the whole hog for cost savings and make F1 look like 'real cars'. Oh that's called touring cars already.

My snappy point is that ultimately variety is needed within all sports. Yes you have to be sensible with costs and rules, but not to the point where it compromises the whole point.

[xpensive]

Your snappy point is most appreciated xx, but where is it written that a 100 minute race with a prototypa has to be labeled "sportscars" or "LMP"?
My point is that open wheel racing is an anachronism from the days the built racing cars like that, it has no technical benefit whatsoever, just that they are fun to watch. Is that enough, a modern F1 car with a full body would make eights around the current field?

[xxChrisxx]

Your snappy point is most appreciated xx, but where is it written that a 100 minute race with a prototypa has to be labeled "sportscars" or "LMP"?
My point is that open wheel racing is an anachronism from the days the built racing cars like that, it has no technical benefit whatsoever, just that they are fun to watch. Is that enough, a modern F1 car with a full body would make eights around the current field?

It doesn't matter what it's label is, you can call it F1, Closed Wheel Championship 1, whatever, it doesn't matter. It's the fans perception of the cars and the racing.

Ultimately the point of F1 is not to progress technology or encourage technical benefits for road cars or appear green etc etc, it's to make money. It's the fans allow that to happen (tv audience). You make a really dreadful series that noone watches, there is no sponsorship and no money coming in. The series fails.

Not everyone likes sports prototypes, not everyone likes F1. Although there may be technical differences that engineers like myself find interesting, for you average sunday watcher. You enclose the wheels, you make it look like sportscar racing.

It's been part of F1's USP, it's the top level open wheel racing series in the world. (Sorry IRL boys it just is). You take away that USP, the average fan can't tell the difference between LMP cars and closed wheel F1.

[WhiteBlue]

F1 is subject to marketing as any other business. Being an open wheel racing series is part of the brand signature of F1. This goes deep into emotional and brand recognition issues. No technical advantage will ever be strong enough to change the open wheel status. Closed wheel would offer a lot more safety but F1 will rather seek other solutions before it abandons open wheels.

18 inch rims will come if the economic conditions require it. Teams are not going to pay millions of $ if the wheels are the same for all. As Paddy Lowe said, they will try to contain additional cost by regulations and get on with the business.

Q. How much extra work and cost would a switch to low-profile tyres, as is being suggested by Michelin for 2011, create?

PL: Michelin are talking to the FIA, FOTA and FOM about a return to F1 for 2011-2013 and 18 inch wheels would be a requirement on their part. Principally they feel that those size wheels would be more contemporary in terms of appearance and technology. For us, it depends how we manage it as to how big a problem it could become.

In terms of being conscious of the time and the costs, the teams, I hope, will agree to a set of constraints that mean we don't expand the development into an envelope that's screwed up by that. With a bigger wheel you have less volume around the upright and the brake, for example, and that would have to be looked at. I think that new rules can be written in a way that managed the costs, and I don't think it would be too bad.

Q. Would McLaren support such a move?

PL: Yes. I think all the teams have agreed that if Michelin supplies that as a condition then we'll support that.

[xpensive]

I wouldn't be so dead certain about this WB, open wheel racing in the US is dead because of the lack of customer orientation, where Nascar offers something much closer to the public's reality.

My vision is that F1 will eventually go the same way, I can already here opinions form non-F1 friends, like "what is that?" Giving F1 covered wheels would be more of granting the whole thing a modern image, not just for geeks like you and me.

[WhiteBlue]

I wouldn't be so dead certain about this WB, open wheel racing in the US is dead because of the lack of customer orientation, where Nascar offers something much closer to the public's reality.

Open wheel racing in the US is dead because they killed it with a break away war. You can call that a lack of customer orientation but I rather call that stupidity.

In general NASCAR is much better in marketing than any other series. It is not the appeal of the cars that has made the series great but the skill of the people marketing it. The 2009 break away discussion just shows all the reasons why NASCAR outgrows F1.