Are we seeing a Vettel era?

[bhall]

[...] but it does very clearly show that the RB7 in itself is not dominant.

No, it does not. You ask for far too much from a car if taking 18 of 19 pole positions, under any circumstances, is not considered dominant.

[...] a driver of Webber's caliber [...]

I must have missed the memo that elevated him to world-class status, because I still rate Vettel, Alonso, Massa*, Button, Hamilton, Rosberg and Schumacher ahead of Webber. I also consider Raikkonen and Kubica better drivers, even though they were non-factors last year.

* Talk of Webber replacing him at Ferrari notwithstanding. I think those rumors served to try to motivate Massa more than anything else. In reality, such a move would, at best, be lateral.

EDIT: Are we sure the moderation isn't a bit heavy-handed?

[raymondu999]

RB7 was dominant. I completely agree with you there bhallq. But I think the point is "how dominant."

For example; if you had Car A and Car B. Car A took every pole of the year by a tenth - and Car B took every pole of the year by 2 seconds. Car B should probably be considered more dominant.

[bhall]

I don't understand your example. They'd be equally dominant in my eyes, because they both took every pole position. What more can you ask of a car?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

@mnmracer

You seem to load the dice in Vettels favour. He did very well, but nothing that was superhuman.

In 16 of those 19 races, he finished in the top 2. His only retirement came from a puncture, where had he finished, he probably would've won.
A theoretical 17 out of 19 then.

Then we have Japan whereby anything above 4th would have guaranteed the title. Red Bull explicitly made sure of the WDC there and then by coming home 3rd. Had Red Bull and Vettel not been cautious, it is very easy to see the pole sitter finish in the top 2.
18 out of 19 then.


Then to Germany where he qualified 3rd and was actually outpaced by Webber. He spun costing himself 11 seconds (and track position). Had he maintained position, there is every likelihood that 2nd place was achievable.

19 out of 19 races that this car could or should have finished in the top 2 and you are trying to say this was a herculean effort by Vettel?
I'm afraid mate, 2011 was the story of the RB7. Vettel was very good at extracting its potential which is why by the halfway point in the season....the championship was effectively dead.

@raymond
How dominant do you want? Steam roller a 2 second advantage at every track?
I dare say, Alonso Hamilton or even Rosberg could have matched Vettels points had they the privilege of driving the RB7.

+1 bhallg2k

[mnmracer]

[...] but it does very clearly show that the RB7 in itself is not dominant.

No, it does not. You ask for far too much from a car if taking 18 of 19 pole positions, under any circumstances, is not considered dominant.

The question is whether the car is dominant, or the driver. Simply stating the best-case-scenario statistics does not answer that question. Yet you answer it, with no reasoning behind it. It is all black-and-white for you. You believe of the two, it was the car who was dominant and Vettel was simply driving it well, without backing it up. I believe it was Vettel who was dominant, aided by a fast car, and I back up my claim with facts and figures.

[...] a driver of Webber's caliber [...]

I must have missed the memo that elevated him to world-class status, because I still rate Vettel, Alonso, Massa*, Button, Hamilton, Rosberg and Schumacher ahead of Webber. I also consider Raikkonen and Kubica better drivers, even though they were non-factors last year.

Again, everything is black-and-white with you. Not being as good as Alonso or Raikkonen apparantly means a bad driver in your book. I find it interesting, to say the least, that you rate Rosberg in a different class than Webber, despite them having equal performances as team-mates. Also to class Massa in with those drivers... let's call it an unusual choice.

[bhall]

I've tried to be as diplomatic as possible with this whole thing, and, as such, I haven't referenced the statistics you've provided. Those numbers are no less supposition than my words.

I guarantee, beyond any reasonable doubt, that if a poll were taken of F1 professionals, from Ferrari team members all the way down to those with HRT, and even amongst journalists and janitors, everyone, everyone, everyone would attest to RB7's complete and utter dominance of its competition last year. It seems the only doubters are here in this thread.

If it seems as though I paint this as a black or white situation, it's only because this is one of the few instances in the world at-large, much less in the world of F1, where it really is just that simple. Any denial is merely plugging your ears to make the logic go away.

EDIT: I will now do my very best to walk away from this

[mnmracer]

What more can you ask of a car?

In a dominant car, it doesn't take outstanding skills to dominate. If the car is two seconds per lap faster than the rest, Kahrun Chandhock could become a world champion. Barichello could have easily become world champion in the dominant Ferrari. Mark Webber could not become a world champion the Red Bull of last year.

I guarantee, beyond any reasonable doubt, that if a poll were taken of F1 professionals, from Ferrari team members all the way down to those with HRT, and even amongst journalists and janitors, everyone, everyone, everyone would attest to RB7's complete and utter dominance of its competition last year. It seems the only doubters are here in this thread.

Is Jackie Stewart, Sterling Moss, Eddie Jordan and the BBC-team, Olav Mol (Dutch F1 commentator since 1991), James Allen and Fernando Alonso ("there have been occasions when the conditions were very tricky and he managed to put the car on pole and drove a perfect race from start to the end.") a good start for you?

@mnmracer
You seem to load the dice in Vettels favour. He did very well, but nothing that was superhuman.

I am not saying he was superhuman, I am simply saying he performed outstanding.

[Richard]

I've tidied up this thread, edited a few posts, deleted several. I'm sure you all meant to say ....

"Sorry, I can't really see this going any further. We'll have agree to disagree"

"I see what you mean, it's not a problem"

[bhall]

[self-moderated]

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I am not saying he was superhuman, I am simply saying he performed outstanding.

He performed consistently well and to the level of the machine he was driving.
Outstanding suggests he transcended his vehicle in a fashion we have seen Senna and Schumacher do.

I have yet to see that from Vettel.

[Giblet]

I don't think you will ever see that again Jet, the transcending part. The cars are so specifically engineered and are so much closer to the limit all the time, there is not the same 'room' as before. I also never saw Schumi do what Senna did, 'transcendental' wise and humble a WDC like Prost.

Vettel did perform outstanding last year but he had the car to do so, and only one person to beat, like 90% of Schumacher's career.

Every time he needed to dig for pole, he pretty much got it. He had one of the best seasons ever in the sport, period. It was his to throw away, and he more than grabbed it with both hands.

His true test of mettle, will be when he gets a crappy car and has to fight for scraps left behind by the people in cars that can win. I've seen Alonso, Schumi, Hamilton, and Button all deal with slow cars, some better than others.

They have shown brilliant drives from the back and made amazing races to watch when not leading.

Until we see him in a car not capable of winning will we not be able to judge his true ability or 'era'.

[bhall]

Careful, Giblet. That logic doesn't seem to work around here.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Agree with that Giblet.

Although Schumacher did have some moments like the 5th gear drive in Spain...or a couple of his wet drives.

Also Agree that limits are all that much closer these days than the they were even just a few years back.
Hence why in my view, the RB7 has to be regarded as a dominant machine. Every discernible factor it was the class of the field, in some instances by a country mile.

Does not take away from Vettels achievement, as I have said before the guy brought home the bacon emphatically.
But, there were no dogged drives. From the back of the grid to claim a victory. Or wet races where he annihilated the field as a couple of his contemporaries have(Alonso, Hamilton,Schumacher). There where also no(or almost none) occasions last year that you could say Vettel beat a faster car.

He may do this for the next 2 or 3 seasons, which is quite scary really. But I'd have to lean on this being an anomlay driven(excuse the pun) by the car and its creator rather than anything particularly special from Vettel.

[mnmracer]

Well, explain to me the logic of that. Vettel spent 1.5 season in a real slower car, not Hamilton's still 3rd fastest McLaren. 1.5 season in which he, to appeal to your requirements, fought himself from the back to the front on multiple occassions.

What is the logic in ignoring what information you already have.

@JohnsonsEvilTwin
How is not dogging your race suddenly a bad thing? And please, do tell me, how often have Alonso and Hamilton beaten a faster car? Also please, do tell me, how often have Alonso, Hamilton, Schumacher and Senna won from the back?

[raymondu999]

But, there were no dogged drives. From the back of the grid to claim a victory.

No such drives from anyone really. Other than maybe Kimi in Japan 2005

China 2009 and Monza 2008 were quite annihilating, as was Korea 2010 until his engine went kaput. I'd also say Vettel beat a McLaren that was faster in the Barcelona race.