Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

[munudeges]

Well, it's better - let's be realistic. It's way more promising than the last couple of years. However, Merc turning into an average looking midfield team when the race comes around is not good.

[Mestrades]

Now do you realize how unfortunate that is the Mercedes? From Australia that I warned you. However, all of you have ignored my comments. Now, your fall is harder than mine!
Confirmed what I said, now I just need to confirm that Mercedes will be the seventh team this year, they will not get any podium and obviously, no victory, and I dare to say that Mercedes will get hurt the image of Michael and his comeback will have been a disaster because of this --- team, Mercedes.

[Mestrades]

Now do you realize how unfortunate that is the Mercedes? From Australia that I warned you. However, all of you have ignored my comments. Now, your fall is harder than mine!
Confirmed what I said, now I just need to confirm that Mercedes will be the seventh team this year, they will not get any podium and obviously, no victory, and I dare to say that Mercedes will get hurt the image of Michael and his comeback will have been a disaster because of this team, Mercedes.
Ferrari had this problem last year and they were not able to fix it during all year. Mercedes is a team with less economic potential than Ferrari, so I am convinced that they will not solve the fault. In fact, I think that they dont know what problem they have, because each version of statements that I can read is different. In brief, a pathetic team.

[ArchAngel]

Best for the team to completely devote all free practice sessions in Shanghai & onwards toward long runs on heavy fuel, put in as many 'testing' laps as they can and even split the setup permutations between the drivers to cover all options 'til they finally nail the setup sweet-spot for the given track conditions & characteristics. Doesn't matter if they're outside the top 10 in all FP sessions, and just barely make it into Q3. Rather than blitz the competition in qualifying only to fade out of points-scoring position by the end of the race, it's better to start in P8-10 and drag their way up to P5-6 by the time the checkered flag falls.

Damage limitation & points conservation will probably have to be the order of the day 'til they make it back to Europe. Coming in as late as Costa & Willis did, both could not have been able to contribute enough towards the conception of the W03. But now, they sure as hell must prove themselves emphatically in the race to develop the W03 from being just a qualifying wonder into the race-long contender it's supposed to be. Hopefully, podium assaults can finally commence in earnest from Catalunya onwards.

[Ferraripilot]

Now do you realize how unfortunate that is the Mercedes? From Australia that I warned you. However, all of you have ignored my comments. Now, your fall is harder than mine!
Confirmed what I said, now I just need to confirm that Mercedes will be the seventh team this year, they will not get any podium and obviously, no victory, and I dare to say that Mercedes will get hurt the image of Michael and his comeback will have been a disaster because of this --- team, Mercedes.

As I said before, it is very much an unfair proposition in making any judgment on the Mercedes 2012 season since they have been racing with a car which has had tire issues. However, when they compete in a race where they have no problem with the tires and they get the maximum out of them and the car is still not competing at the front of the grid, then we can start making judgments. But thus far, it is not within logic judging a car with tire issues as we technically don't know what the car is capable of when functioning correctly. This is equivalent to judging RB8 strictly on its qualifying pace which obviously is not what it used to be as they are experiencing tire issues during qualifying the same as Mercedes are experiencing tire issues during the race.

[Ferraripilot]

Best for the team to completely devote all free practice sessions in Shanghai & onwards toward long runs on heavy fuel, put in as many 'testing' laps as they can and even split the setup permutations between the drivers to cover all options 'til they finally nail the setup sweet-spot for the given track conditions & characteristics. Doesn't matter if they're outside the top 10 in all FP sessions, and just barely make it into Q3. Rather than blitz the competition in qualifying only to fade out of points-scoring position by the end of the race, it's better to start in P8-10 and drag their way up to P5-6 by the time the checkered flag falls.

Damage limitation & points conservation will probably have to be the order of the day 'til they make it back to Europe. Coming in as late as Costa & Willis did, both could not have been able to contribute enough towards the conception of the W03. But now, they sure as hell must prove themselves emphatically in the race to develop the W03 from being just a qualifying wonder into the race-long contender it's supposed to be. Hopefully, podium assaults can finally commence in earnest from Catalunya onwards.

No need to overthink the situation as it's a much easier issue which I am sure will be fixed by a simple geometry change designed to induce more heat in the tires. Or simply a stiffer roll bar configuration could be used to induce more load without losing camber which the tires are designed for.


Let me tell you what happens when racing slicks do not operate within their heat range. Firstly, operating in their respective heat range makes the rubber more flexible which obviously decreases wear and increases performance. Running under that operating window loses a huge amount of performance because the rubber is not as flexible as it should be thus causing the car to slide around more and beat the rubber off the tire by degrading laterally. So it's essentially a double-whammy of performance loss; a) losing performance from lack of stickyness from tire rubber, and b) tires falling apart due to sliding around from a lack of heat.

[raymondu999]

As I said before, it is very much an unfair proposition in making any judgment on the Mercedes 2012 season since they have been racing with a car which has had tire issues.

I hope we see a good, competitive Mercedes that is a winner. But this logic I cannot agree with. Part of the tech team's job description is creating a car that is both fast, and doesn't have issues.

Having a car with tyre issues and saying it's not fair to judge because of their tyre issues is like saying it's not fair to judge a laptop because it can only run an hour before overheating. The overheating is, like it or not, a part of what the laptop is/does, at that point in time. Ditto with the Mercedes.

[Ferraripilot]

As I said before, it is very much an unfair proposition in making any judgment on the Mercedes 2012 season since they have been racing with a car which has had tire issues.

I hope we see a good, competitive Mercedes that is a winner. But this logic I cannot agree with. Part of the tech team's job description is creating a car that is both fast, and doesn't have issues.

Having a car with tyre issues and saying it's not fair to judge because of their tyre issues is like saying it's not fair to judge a laptop because it can only run an hour before overheating. The overheating is, like it or not, a part of what the laptop is/does, at that point in time. Ditto with the Mercedes.

True, but they are fixable issues. And F1 is all about teams having cars with issues that need correcting for more performance. And W03s issue is not a fundamental issue like Ferrari for example. Red Bull are even experiencing tire issues, yet mainly during qualifying specific to Vettel's preferences.

[raymondu999]

Yes issues are fixable - and when they do get fixed then you can see the car's real potential. But it is what it is and what's done is done. The car has to be judged right now on what we've seen so far.

[Ferraripilot]

Yes issues are fixable - and when they do get fixed then you can see the car's real potential. But it is what it is and what's done is done. The car has to be judged right now on what we've seen so far.

I agree a car is only as good as its last race, just like anything I suppose. That being said I retain very high hopes for the car once its teething issues are sorted, which are quite obviously present.

[raymondu999]

Yup that's what I meant. Something - heck, anything should be valued on what it is, not what it will be or what it was.

[marcush.]

when Alonso can win in that F2012 in Sepang we should be fair enough to realise this was not your average race .Michael had terrible luck in both races so far as well.
let´s wait another one or two races and see how it´s unfolding.

[Mr.S]

The car is not good in terms of race pace. Mclaren,Lotus,Williams,Sauber are definitely quicker in terms of race pace. Ferrari are probably there about or maybe at best slightly quicker,but not much in the dry. Its only in the intermediates Mercedes really suffered.

THE F-duct is a genius of an invention & masking everything. Without it Mercedes will be with Toro Rosso & Force India or maybe slightly better. It is giving IMO atleast 6-7 tenths in qualy. The car is nowhere near a Mclaren or a Lotus though. The gap is atleast 1 Full Second which is a shame & which is very near what it was last year.

Williams have taken such a huge step forward. Ross Brawn has been out-smarted again. He has come with a dud Exhaust. The car does not enough downforce but Traction & Mechanical Grip are even worse. S3 is 1 Straight & 1/2 & despite Mercedes having the highest straightline speed in Qualy & RBR among the worst,Webber still has 1-2 tenths over Michael which shows how bad the car is mechanically too.

I am tired of this non-sense. There has already been rumours that Mercedes might pull out or explore legal options keeping the concorde in mind. At this point 3rd place is a long way away. If Mercedes cant get atleast 3rd this year then I dont see Mercedes board wasting their money in a legal battle.


I see Mercedes selling their team if they cant get atleast 3rd. I hate to say this but its time over for Brawn & Haug. They have got enough chances. Its time for them to step aside. Brawn's sell-by date is over.

The last thing I want a Team Principal to say is that there will almost no updates till Mugello when there is a frantic Developmental race. Ferrari are better than Mercedes & they are bringing big upgrades with rumours of a new chasis by China/Bahrain & Mercedes can bring a Proper Exhaust Solution.

After two races? Really? The sky is falling crowd is out a bit early.

Rewind to Barcelona a bit. The car performed very well on long stints. They get to Australia with different weather conditions and they miscalculated how to properly heat the tires. A mistake yes, but no reason to go crazy. Malayasia comes along and the car is brilliant on long stints, short stints, everywhere, and then it rains during the race and the car behaves very differently on the tires. They knew little about the tire issue going into Malaysia and the weather certainly didn't help what I am sure was partially conjecture in setting the car up for a possible wet weather race.

Point is, save your judgment until the team can clearly say they absolutely yielded the maximum out of the car and everything performed as it should have. Thus far, they have not had that! Only in qualifying have things gone well, and the car has proven it is very capable, fast, and has great downforce. The car is also a fantastic leap in build quality from W02 and F2012 for that matter. And lastly their DRS system yields maybe .200-.300 above others at most circuits so there is no possible way half a second is in that. Half a second is DDD or EBD level all-dominating innovations, and this is definitely not that even in qualifying.

The exhaust solution of Mclaren and Red Bull is questionable at best as Red Bull are still mucking about with testing different configurations of the system. If Mercedes were to move to a system such as that then their learning curve with the technology would be on the back foot compared to the others, and we just don't know which system is best. The Lotus certainly goes well without it and their system is very similar to Mercedes'.

Okay first on long run pace Michael & Nico were far behind Mclaren & Red Bull & even Lotus. SO nowhere near brilliant. As a matter of fact in the practise sessions in no runs did they look Brilliant. They looked allright. Its qualifying which changes everything. The F-duct innovation is huge. Whitemarsh says an ordinary Front Wing F-duct can give as much 8km boost. This has a rear wing & a front wing duct. The Mclaren front wing duct gave what 12-14 km boost??


DRS over a lap in China gave more than 1s according to Michael last year. DRS at best can give 18-20 km boost so I see no reason why this Front Wing & Rear Wing F-duct build around the track can not give 5-6 tenths atleast.

The car never had great downforce. Mercedes atleast were 3 tenths behind in the High Downforce Sectors & in FP3 they were 4-5 tenths behind in their best lap. But an even bigger worry is the car is ABSOLUTELY crap in terms of traction. Webber is 15-20 km slower than Michael & S3 Has 1 & 1/2 huge straights & Webber still has 1-2 tenths over Michael which is ridiculous.

Barcelona is not a comparison. It was heavily rubbered in track after 8 days of running(2 Tests) & the circuit was many many seconds faster than normal.We dont know the fuel load & the setup or how the weather effected it so its not right to say they had great pace.

The exhaust solutions are questionable. So is Mercedes F-duct. So was EBD. So was DD. Bottomline is Mercedes are getting out-smarted time & again. FIA has said its legal. Lotus also has much better traction btw. And Mercedes solution is far from the best. By my observation the sidepods bodyword obstruct the flow of the exhaust pipes when it is just coming out instead of guiding it through like the Red Bull one.

Ferrari-Mclaren-RBR-Sauber have all gone towards that solution. BTW Michael said that they are 1s off the pace or near that figure in terms of long runs so you cant calculate how much the F-duct is giving. He is happy that they are not 2s off like last year. Clearly I am not.

Mercedes board are already rumoured to be considering an exist from Formula1 with regards to the Concorde agreement as they can seem to agree & there could be a legal tangle. If they are anything less than 4th then they will quit probably. Three 4th places is unacceptable to the fans & to the board. Brawn & Haug wil be kicked off. I hope they dont employment anywhere. Wasted MSC & Mercedes' legacy. Futile comeback to the sport for both & only added misery to their heritage.

[Mr.S]

Best for the team to completely devote all free practice sessions in Shanghai & onwards toward long runs on heavy fuel, put in as many 'testing' laps as they can and even split the setup permutations between the drivers to cover all options 'til they finally nail the setup sweet-spot for the given track conditions & characteristics. Doesn't matter if they're outside the top 10 in all FP sessions, and just barely make it into Q3. Rather than blitz the competition in qualifying only to fade out of points-scoring position by the end of the race, it's better to start in P8-10 and drag their way up to P5-6 by the time the checkered flag falls.

Damage limitation & points conservation will probably have to be the order of the day 'til they make it back to Europe. Coming in as late as Costa & Willis did, both could not have been able to contribute enough towards the conception of the W03. But now, they sure as hell must prove themselves emphatically in the race to develop the W03 from being just a qualifying wonder into the race-long contender it's supposed to be. Hopefully, podium assaults can finally commence in earnest from Catalunya onwards.

No need to overthink the situation as it's a much easier issue which I am sure will be fixed by a simple geometry change designed to induce more heat in the tires. Or simply a stiffer roll bar configuration could be used to induce more load without losing camber which the tires are designed for.


Let me tell you what happens when racing slicks do not operate within their heat range. Firstly, operating in their respective heat range makes the rubber more flexible which obviously decreases wear and increases performance. Running under that operating window loses a huge amount of performance because the rubber is not as flexible as it should be thus causing the car to slide around more and beat the rubber off the tire by degrading laterally. So it's essentially a double-whammy of performance loss; a) losing performance from lack of stickyness from tire rubber, and b) tires falling apart due to sliding around from a lack of heat.

BTW I am not buying this BS Brawn is selling. No offence to you as I know you want them to succeed as much as I do. But Mercedes have been searching for scapegoats & excuses from the 1st season.

Narrow Tyres,Weight Distribution,EBD,SWB eats up tyres,now New exhausts & LWB eating tyres.

The car is not good enough. Bottomline. Brawn is grasping at straws & excuses to save his job. Data shows clearly that Michael's tyre degradation was equal more or less or lesser than Hamilton's or the other's. The degradation was manageable & nothing bad. The problem is performance not Degradation.

And Rosberg is killing the tyres. He should take the blame for it not blame the cars. How can MSC do 1 Sting with Inters while Rosberg does 2 Stings with Inters & is still lapping slower than MSC even on brand new inters. It is stupid. Rosberg maybe is driving the first 1-2 laps very hard,Michael's & kimi's 1st laps were slow laps comparatively. Michael faced no problem in his brief stint in Australia degradation wise.

This is a diversion tactic to take eyes off the poor pace of the car

[Ferraripilot]

when Alonso can win in that F2012 in Sepang we should be fair enough to realise this was not your average race .Michael had terrible luck in both races so far as well.
let´s wait another one or two races and see how it´s unfolding.

If you remember, W02 was brilliant on intermediates with Schumacher behind the wheel in Canada. Had it remained wet for that race I have zero doubt Schumacher would have won that race. F2012s win was a gift from the F1 Gods. But yet, Michael has been a terrible victim of circumstance these past two races. Combine that with Malaysia race conditions which made the teams tire situation impossible to deduce as they had no marker other than Australia to go by. I would say Merc as a team are going to write off much of the data acquired at Malaysia as it was such a moot point to understanding the issue, or even if the issue still existed and Malaysia just didn't give a fair shot to see if it did or not!