Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Glyn]

Honda will never be a worthy Engine. We've had years of false promises. Stop thinking they will come good. They won't.

[PhillipM]

How can you say the engine has poor reliability when it's a different engine to the previous years

The "innovating on an engine that already have very poor reliability" comment was a general statement and a slight reference to the philosophy in year 1 and 2, ie if someone has an engine with poor reliability, innovating should probably not be top priority. As we now know how that turned out.

Mclaren isn't in this to get a power unit that's a bit worse than the Merc works team, they had that.

[JesperA]

How can you say the engine has poor reliability when it's a different engine to the previous years

The "innovating on an engine that already have very poor reliability" comment was a general statement and a slight reference to the philosophy in year 1 and 2, ie if someone has an engine with poor reliability, innovating should probably not be top priority. As we now know how that turned out.

Mclaren isn't in this to get a power unit that's a bit worse than the Merc works team

Obviously not, thats exactly why i said "but i think they should focus on a stable platform first, then innovate to catch the front runners.". How could anyone innovate or even know that they have an innovative engine if other parts of the engine constantly fails, thats why any team need a stable and reliable platform and then bring innovative improvements to that already stable platform. You can have the most innovative engine on the planet but if it never reach even the slightest hint of reliability (as Honda Y1-Y2) then you never catch the front runners anyway.

[PhillipM]

Because a stable platform is generally one you can't innovate out from.

Did Mercedes bring a conservative design at the start, or did they innovate with a split turbo and other tricks?

How's 3 years of conservative design working out for Ferrari and Renault?

[GoranF1]

https://twitter.com/JeffreyNKirk/status ... 9830113281

[Thunder]

Well, thats bad.

[BosF1]

Thank god there are no more tokes. I just can't believe what is happening. Third engine in 1.5 days?

They are changing back to the engine Alonso used yesterday. That's what I read in the team thread.

[Jef Patat]

I meant 3rd engine switch, not physical unit. Not clear, sorry.

[drunkf1fan]

Guys, relax... as many pointed out in other threads... "It's just the second day of testing, it will be fine..."
To all of them that still keep saying and repeating that as parrots, you have no idea what you're talking about...
Third year in a row... But this one hurts the most since one would expect that Honda is over making stupid mistakes like this... Unbelievable! So, only 6 days of testing, this isn't even the final version ready for homologation... they're in deep doo-doo me thinks...

To me what I see was a rushed 2015 engine, then they stuck with it for 2016(mistake) and the decision to change concept significantly for this year was made too late. Effectively this engine has had what, since April/May being the main focus. So in many ways this is also another rushed engine. I expected this result all year because it's not another evolution, a shedload of changes in one go would almost certainly bring a shedload of problems with it. If they started this engine in 2015 in March after testing I'd say yeah, it should have enough time but this all stems back to getting in too soon. Rushed development to 2015 gave them a rubbish base and not long enough to realise it was a bad concept. But being in meant they were committed to supporting and improving the engine being used which takes huge resources away from actually designing and testing a new engine.

I also think as the guy above you posted, that Honda have a massive issue with their dyno testing.

I've said for ages now, other teams are bringing tested parts to track with mostly very few issues but Honda is bringing reliability fixes... that reduce reliability, to an engine that arrives to testing full of reliability problems that weren't caught.

Where Merc and Ferrari seem to be catching almost every major reliability problem in the lab and bringing nearly bulletproof engines to testing, Honda are most certainly not. Was it Canada in 2015 where they brought a reliability fix to the mgu-h, which caused them to go from finishing a few races to, I forget what it was, 5 engines and one race start across two races, or was that just one race? It was a disaster and they went back to the older engine after two races so they could actually have a shot at getting through a race.

My only hope for a competitive Honda (not a fan just want to see more competition upfront) is that at least they are hopefully on a better concept now. Although I think this year will be tough, at least they are now improving an engine with a chance of being decent, rather than wasting time improving and developing a dead end engine without the potential to be good enough.

[namao]

Yes, the main problem Honda has is dyno testing. They can't simulate into the dyno the factors (simulate g-forces, vibration, etc) of a real F1. So when they fired up the PU for the first time at Barcelona, problems emerged, and they have limited time to solve them.

This situation reminds me very much of 2015 testing and its "revolutionary size zero" philosophy. On theory, they believe that their desings and concepts works but when they put together those elements, the PU fails or needs a redesing.

Honda has an endemic problem in the dyno area. A very severe one.

[Postmoe]

BTW guys, if the oil pan is very deep within the engine AND they are fixing this little by little, it is easier to fit changes overnight in one engine, run the healthy one in the morning and then swapping to new oil pan spec during lunch-break.

OMG! Could it be? Could it be?

[ziggy]

Relax guys. We've seen worse situations. There are NO GUARANTEES in such a complex project. The only problem i can think of is oil pickup problem under high G forces (based on Alo's comments). There's no quick fix to this, worst case scenario is a redesign of the engine block itself because of the ultra tight packaging.

Those circumstances (G forces) simply can't be simulated, not even on the best dyno. But they can be predicted. Although it's possible they are trying something new...

[GoranF1]

https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/836562446693322752 looks like heads are about to roll

[turbof1]

Guys! This is a technical power unit thread. When something breaks, we discuss what breaks, under which circumstances it breaks and the possible solutions. This is however not a place to moan and complain how Honda is doing a terrible job. Please keep that either in the testing thread or the mclaren honda team thread.

Or alternatively, put a small letter in here:



But this topic is more sacred than Jerusalem. Do not defile it! Posts have been removed.

[glenntws]

https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/836562446693322752

looks like heads are about to roll

Don't trust in that. When reading the article, there is no one single evidence of the lack of power. The run the engine detuned, nothing more.

Why the hell should the bring a new engine that it worse than the old one?! The actual one runs detuned, nothing more. The guys over at AMuS give us sooo much Information (according toi them the new Problem is in a new area) and they say they get the information directly from the Honda guys.

These guys know nothing more than anyone else and the things they say are nothing more than speculations.