Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

[XRayF1]

And finally, Toto and Niki should stop the BS of continuing to talk about how competitive F1 is and behaving like guardian angels of F1. Now I agree with Bernie that, Toto is responsible for the death of F1.

Whatever you said - fine. I disagree, but that's another point.

But how come that everything not working in F1, is pointed to Mercedes?
Why should MGP let others get the rewards, especially after they failed?

Secondly, the current engine formula was not created by Mercedes, but others as well namely Ferrari, Renault, Toyota, BMW and Cosworth. This whole thing going on right now is nothing than a compromise of all stakeholders involved.
BE, the FIA, said engine manufacturers, sponsors and F1 teams.
So by definition, it cannot be what any of us expects it to be.

But, why is it so hard to admit that one manufacturer just made it right (and hit the jackpot) while the others did not - and this manufacturer wants to stay there?
Renault and Ferrari had the same time line then MGP, could've invested the same amount of money/personnel/resources.

Mercedes would be out of their corporate minds to give their No.1 engine to RBR.
(Especially when everyone can see that RBR as a team are not team players - either you win/loose as a team, or you don't. Why should Mercedes then take them on as a team? It can only backfire.)

Thirdly, and what always seems forgotten - Mercedes not only got the engine right, but also their aerodynamics.
How would the F1 world look like, if their chassis was crap? Nobody would accuse MGP of anything, because they would not be 1s ahead of everyone.
The discussion would surely look completely different.

[adrianjordan]

I can't help but think that the best option would be to open up PU development and testing more so that Renaul, Honda and Ferrari can catch up with Merc and so that potential new suppliers aren't handicapped from the get-go.

This would lead to higher costs, so mandate that a PU manufacturer must be prepared to supply up to 4 teams (inlcuding their works team) and a fixed price for PU units so that the costs have to be swallowed by the manufacturer and not passed on to the customer team.

Finally PU supplied to customer teams must be of the same specification as those supplied to the works team and the FIA would reserve the right to carry out random inspections to ensure this is the case.

Should encourage more compeition between PU's whilst not costing the smaller teams out of the market.

[gandharva]

For what it's worth, Autosport believe RB & TR will end up running the 2015 Ferrari engine (Monza spec) whilst Ferrari run their newer engines.

LOL, if this will be the only available deal to TR and RBR, Mateschitz will pull out of F1.

But I call this speculation bs anyway. If both teams make a deal with Ferrari, it will be be more like waiting for 1-2 races at longest for a new PU spec.

[Cold Fussion]

Given Horner's comments at the Austrian GP you really have to wonder whether or not they actually prefer being with Renault compared to Ferrari. Too bad for them that they've given Renault so much bad press that they may not want to supply them at all.

[adrianjordan]

So what chances do people think there are of RBR and TR going with Ferrari as a short-term solution whilst working towards building their own engines in the long-term...perhaps with funding from a manufacturer by way of sponsorship in return for naming rights...??

Develop the engine outside of the sport, with reference data from 2 of the current engines...at least stand a chance of getting it right...

[condor]

Sorry posted this in the car hardware thread, but should belong here.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/marko ... ll-engines

This is specifically why Mercedes were correct in deciding not to supply Red Bull with their engines. Red Bull, while being a fantastically technically competent racing team, are toxic in nature largely as a result of the attitudes of Marko, Horner and to a lesser extent Newey.

Renault were a critically important complement to Red Bull's chassis' prowess in the 4 years of domination from 2010 to 2013. The combination of Newey's exhaust blown diffuser related designs together with the Renault engines off-throttle characteristics (developed specifically to suit Newey's goals) and the packaging characteristics of the engine were the reason behind that success.

Yet even during those years of winning, not only did Renault get little thanks and credit for contributing to their success, Horner actually criticised the engine's lack of power continuously. Come the turbo owner, where Renault have actually failed, they got well and truly thrown under the bus. Red Bull publicly slated Renault right from the beginning.

So what's in it for an engine manufacturer to supply Red Bull? If Red Bull wins with a Mercedes engine, then Red Bull will claim how great they are that they can beat the works team. If they don't beat Mercedes, it will be publicly claimed that they are not getting equal engines.

For Red Bull, it's always somebody elses fault. When regulations controlled the exhaust blowing Newey, Horner and Marko were claiming that innovation was being targetted. Contrast this with McLaren who accepted it when the F-duct was banned. When other teams complained about Red Bull's flexi wings, again they were being victimised because of their success.

From that article I linked above where Marko claims it would be more unpleasant for Mercedes if Red Bull beat them with another engine rather than a Mercedes engine. What that acutely highlights is the specific way Marko thinks. It's obvious why he thinks it would be more unpleasant for Mercedes. Because in Marko's mind, it would mean that Red Bull overcame an engine deficit and beat Mercedes because of Red Bull's vastly superior chassis. Marko's wish of unpleasantness on Mercedes isn't one of Red Bull showing Mercedes they could get an engine on par or superior to Mercedes but rather that they can once again show Mercedes how great Red Bull is.

But the reality is that it would not be more unpleasant for Mercedes. Supplying Red Bull would be a lose lose situation for Mercedes. Even getting Ferrari engines is, according to Marko, only a "first step to getting a competitive engine in the future" and he's already thinking about a potential change from a Ferrari engine. For Red Bull, it's not about forming partnerships for the mutual benefit of all stakeholders but rather a supplier is a mere vehicle to assist Red Bull's ambitions and to be used and discarded as they see fit, whilst all the time claiming the kudos. Red Bull is a toxic partner. They are, if you will, like the stereotypical boss from hell who claims all of his employees' success while blaming his employees for failures.

[lio007]

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/marko ... ll-engines

This is specifically why Mercedes were correct in deciding not to supply Red Bull with their engines. Red Bull, while being a fantastically technically competent racing team, are toxic in nature largely as a result of the attitudes of Marko, Horner and to a lesser extent Newey.

As I am an Austrian, I have to plead for Marko. He never used the term "regret" in the original German interview. (I've posted my translation here one page before).
Unfortunately there are already some bad translations and lurid headlines (especially this motorsport.com-report) in the internet.
For me it is very disappointing to use such headline, even with very very bad interpretation of the original interview, and as a result a single person or team is treated bad.

From that article I linked above where Marko claims it would be more unpleasant for Mercedes if Red Bull beat them with another engine rather than a Mercedes engine. What that acutely highlights is the specific way Marko thinks.

What you claim is completely out of context. That's the original what he said:

Jetzt schauen wir mal, mit welchem Motor wir fahren werden. Vielleicht schlagen wir sie ja damit. Dann wäre es unangenehmer als wenn es mit einem Mercedes-Motor geschehen wäre.

= Now we have a look, which engine we will race [next year, after Mercedes talks have ended]. Maybe we beat them with it, which might be more unpleasant as if it would have been with a Mercedes-engine.

And to get Ferrari-PU's for him is not "only" the first step, it is the very important first step, to become competitive next year.

[condor]

From that article I linked above where Marko claims it would be more unpleasant for Mercedes if Red Bull beat them with another engine rather than a Mercedes engine. What that acutely highlights is the specific way Marko thinks.

What you claim is completely out of context. That's the original what he said:

Jetzt schauen wir mal, mit welchem Motor wir fahren werden. Vielleicht schlagen wir sie ja damit. Dann wäre es unangenehmer als wenn es mit einem Mercedes-Motor geschehen wäre.

= Now we have a look, which engine we will race [next year, after Mercedes talks have ended]. Maybe we beat them with it, which might be more unpleasant as if it would have been with a Mercedes-engine.

I don't see how it is out of context. Your translation says the same thing. That if RBR beat Mercedes with a non-Mercedes engine, it might be more unpleasant for Mercedes than if they had beaten them with the same engine. Instead of focusing on the positive of RBR winning in the future in his imagined scenario, he is wet-dreaming about making Mercedes feel more unpleasant. Is there anything non-toxic to ever come out of Marko's mouth? Every time he opens it, it's almost guaranteed bile.

[KeiKo403]

To be fair, I can see another reason why Mercedes wouldn't want to supply RBR. It comes down to reliability. Everyone knows that Newey designs his cars first and foremost thinking about aero, that's what he's about! That means he likes to compromise on things like cooling etc. Now...what if a Newey designed car caused the Merc PU to continuously break.

That's also not very good PR, especially when RBR would be making a big song and dance about it in the media.

[FW17]

Audi seems to be reluctant even after the departure of Piech

I was not suggesting that Toyota is coming into F1, but as an option for collaboration with RBR for an engine. As Toyota is venturing into a turbo program that is also fuel limited certain concepts can be carried over.

With Toyota having a large R&D department a lot of data and knowledge would be available in house which could be of great use for a Joint engine program with Red Bull

Toyota I would believe would be using a straight 4 in continuation with their super formula and GT500 engine

[Phil]

So what's in it for an engine manufacturer to supply Red Bull? If Red Bull wins with a Mercedes engine, then Red Bull will claim how great they are that they can beat the works team. If they don't beat Mercedes, it will be publicly claimed that they are not getting equal engines.

For Red Bull, it's always somebody elses fault. When regulations controlled the exhaust blowing Newey, Horner and Marko were claiming that innovation was being targetted. Contrast this with McLaren who accepted it when the F-duct was banned. When other teams complained about Red Bull's flexi wings, again they were being victimised because of their success.

I don't believe this for a second. Yes, these are all very convenient reasons that one can bring up why Mercedes would not supply RedBull, but the matter of fact is, the real reason why they won't, has all to do with them [RedBull] being too competitive as a result of their engine. Nothing more, nothing less. Anyone else who is getting themselves worked up about comments RedBull have made in regards to Renault are deluding themselves if they think these are the real reasons.

Toto (or someone from the upper Mercedes motorsport board I think) pretty much said that the reason for not supplying RedBull is due to them [Mercedes] having worked long and hard to get where they are. And they intend to stay there. This implies that supplying RedBull would make them a clearly stronger competitor.

From that article I linked above where Marko claims it would be more unpleasant for Mercedes if Red Bull beat them with another engine rather than a Mercedes engine. What that acutely highlights is the specific way Marko thinks. It's obvious why he thinks it would be more unpleasant for Mercedes. Because in Marko's mind, it would mean that Red Bull overcame an engine deficit and beat Mercedes because of Red Bull's vastly superior chassis. Marko's wish of unpleasantness on Mercedes isn't one of Red Bull showing Mercedes they could get an engine on par or superior to Mercedes but rather that they can once again show Mercedes how great Red Bull is.

Hum - before the V6T, on nigh on similar engines (similar power), RedBull pretty much slaughtered their competition on a year on year out basis, 4.5 times in a row. Yes, Renault was part of that success thanks to engine maps that were unique to their engine, but lets not kid ourselves here: RedBull is a force when it comes to aerodynamic efficiency and their chassis. The FIA introduced more sophisticated rules even throughout the season to slow them down a bit, but even that didn't stop them from winning 8 titles (4 WDC, 4 WCC). I'm not at all suggesting that RedBull is in the right in how they have been handling the relationship with their partner. On the other hand; the relationship between those two teams is a bit like a family situation; Without being on the inside, knowing what has been going on behind the scenes, we can't effectively judge what caused them to lash out in that way. It's easy to point fingers at RedBull and call them petulant, but we're effectively only seeing the 'effect', not the 'cause' (the 'cause' being a weak engines to start off with, then perhaps lots of empty promises or disputes during the further development of that engine, perhaps even a break-down, frustration and other things all leading up to this situation). If we take a look at McLaren and Honda, even there the relationship seems to be on fragile terms after all the set-backs the team as a whole has faced. Of course McLaren won't throw Honda under the bus after 1.5 years of a fresh and new partnership, but RedBull and Renault have been partners for a long time. Like most marriages after many years - lots of frustrations over the years build up tension until finally exploding as it is now.

Not justifying, but there are always two sides to a story.

[FW17]

Yes, Renault was part of that success thanks to engine maps that were unique to their engine, but lets not kid ourselves here: RedBull is a force when it comes to aerodynamic efficiency and their chassis.

Apparently RBR developed the exhaust blowing maps in house along with KERS, and its harvesting map.

They even sent their electrical engineers to France in 2014 to find a solution to the hybrid ERS problems which was refused by Renault

[Phil]

Apparently RBR developed the exhaust blowing maps in house along with KERS, and its harvesting map.

They even sent their electrical engineers to France in 2014 to find a solution to the hybrid ERS problems which was refused by Renault

Thanks for the heads-up. I have to be honest; I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case. I was just going on popular belief that apparently it was Renaults ingenuity and brilliance that gave RedBull their dominance... but it does make more sense for me that RedBull as the chassis and aerodynamic specialist wanted to find ways to explore more downforce through off-throttle blowing to make their car more consistent that lead to Renault exploring in that field. It doesn't make them [Renault] less part of that success, but I do clearly see RedBull as the creative force on that front. Always have.

[FW17]

Apparently RBR developed the exhaust blowing maps in house along with KERS, and its harvesting map.

They even sent their electrical engineers to France in 2014 to find a solution to the hybrid ERS problems which was refused by Renault

Thanks for the heads-up. I have to be honest; I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case. I was just going on popular belief that apparently it was Renaults ingenuity and brilliance that gave RedBull their dominance... but it does make more sense for me that RedBull as the chassis and aerodynamic specialist wanted to find ways to explore more downforce through off-throttle blowing to make their car more consistent that lead to Renault exploring in that field. It doesn't make them [Renault] less part of that success, but I do clearly see RedBull as the creative force on that front. Always have.

I am not diminishing the Renault V8 in any way Alonso won the championship with that engine in 2006 even a Williams managed a good year in 2012 with it.

I am just against some sections of the media who suggest that Red Bull did not give Renault their due during the 4 championship years which is total BS

[condor]

So what's in it for an engine manufacturer to supply Red Bull? If Red Bull wins with a Mercedes engine, then Red Bull will claim how great they are that they can beat the works team. If they don't beat Mercedes, it will be publicly claimed that they are not getting equal engines.

For Red Bull, it's always somebody elses fault. When regulations controlled the exhaust blowing Newey, Horner and Marko were claiming that innovation was being targetted. Contrast this with McLaren who accepted it when the F-duct was banned. When other teams complained about Red Bull's flexi wings, again they were being victimised because of their success.

I don't believe this for a second. Yes, these are all very convenient reasons that one can bring up why Mercedes would not supply RedBull, but the matter of fact is, the real reason why they won't, has all to do with them [RedBull] being too competitive as a result of their engine. Nothing more, nothing less. Anyone else who is getting themselves worked up about comments RedBull have made in regards to Renault are deluding themselves if they think these are the real reasons.

Toto (or someone from the upper Mercedes motorsport board I think) pretty much said that the reason for not supplying RedBull is due to them [Mercedes] having worked long and hard to get where they are. And they intend to stay there. This implies that supplying RedBull would make them a clearly stronger competitor.

From that article I linked above where Marko claims it would be more unpleasant for Mercedes if Red Bull beat them with another engine rather than a Mercedes engine. What that acutely highlights is the specific way Marko thinks. It's obvious why he thinks it would be more unpleasant for Mercedes. Because in Marko's mind, it would mean that Red Bull overcame an engine deficit and beat Mercedes because of Red Bull's vastly superior chassis. Marko's wish of unpleasantness on Mercedes isn't one of Red Bull showing Mercedes they could get an engine on par or superior to Mercedes but rather that they can once again show Mercedes how great Red Bull is.

Hum - before the V6T, on nigh on similar engines (similar power), RedBull pretty much slaughtered their competition on a year on year out basis, 4.5 times in a row. Yes, Renault was part of that success thanks to engine maps that were unique to their engine, but lets not kid ourselves here: RedBull is a force when it comes to aerodynamic efficiency and their chassis. The FIA introduced more sophisticated rules even throughout the season to slow them down a bit, but even that didn't stop them from winning 8 titles (4 WDC, 4 WCC). I'm not at all suggesting that RedBull is in the right in how they have been handling the relationship with their partner. On the other hand; the relationship between those two teams is a bit like a family situation; Without being on the inside, knowing what has been going on behind the scenes, we can't effectively judge what caused them to lash out in that way. It's easy to point fingers at RedBull and call them petulant, but we're effectively only seeing the 'effect', not the 'cause' (the 'cause' being a weak engines to start off with, then perhaps lots of empty promises or disputes during the further development of that engine, perhaps even a break-down, frustration and other things all leading up to this situation). If we take a look at McLaren and Honda, even there the relationship seems to be on fragile terms after all the set-backs the team as a whole has faced. Of course McLaren won't throw Honda under the bus after 1.5 years of a fresh and new partnership, but RedBull and Renault have been partners for a long time. Like most marriages after many years - lots of frustrations over the years build up tension until finally exploding as it is now.

Not justifying, but there are always two sides to a story.

I don't disagree with you that Red Bull would likely be competitive with a Mercedes engine. In fact I said as much in my previous posts. But my point stands, regardless of the outcome it's not a positive for Mercedes. If Red Bull are competitive, they are not likely to praise the engine manufacturer. After all, they never praised Renault for the key engine blowing characteristics that allowed their chassis to be so dominant for years. In fact Red Bull hid that as much as they could. Even after the exhaust blowing was banned completely, Red Bull never explained how they utilised the specific Renault engine characteristics. Something that would have been fantastic PR for Renault.

So if Red Bull win with a Mercedes engine, not a great outcome for the works team. But if they don't win, Mercedes will get publicly slated by Red Bull. Do you disagree?

I disagree with your claim that Red Bull's long relationship with Renault was like a marriage. Unless you mean a toxic marriage. Even during Red Bull's successful years, there was never any public love given to Renault. Who cares if Red Bull praised Renault behind closed doors. It's not going to help Renault who, like any such company, are in it for the marketing. In fact, even while Red Bull was winning with the Renault engine, Christian Horner kept publicly calling for engine equalisation of the V8's claiming that the engines had been frozen with the Renault down on power.