Is Hamilton desperate or what?

[ringo]

About Button being close to hamilton with race pace. Who came up with that fairy tale?
When did this happen?
If anything Hamilton's race pace gap is more than his qualifying gap. For those who support the fairy tale let's see the lap times. And no excuses about traffic.
Most of Jenson's races so far have been battle free.

[jwielage]

right, and 2008 clearly showed that I don't read the standings; the champ for me is clearly Massa....

And you are entitled to see it like that if you wish, for me I saw LH pass the finsih line 1st in 6 races to Massa's 5(2008), LH clearly the champion.

I see where your going, but your logic is misguided. Drivers will respond to the incentives of a given point system. Their goal is to win the championship by scoring more POINTS than any other driver in the course of a season. Aplying any other chapionship ranking logic is foolish as drivers would have responded differently.

This is why Bernie's logic has some merit. Not saying I agree with it, but if you want more exciting racing he has a point.

[ISLAMATRON]

right, and 2008 clearly showed that I don't read the standings; the champ for me is clearly Massa....

And you are entitled to see it like that if you wish, for me I saw LH pass the finsih line 1st in 6 races to Massa's 5(2008), LH clearly the champion.

I see where your going, but your logic is misguided. Drivers will respond to the incentives of a given point system. Their goal is to win the championship by scoring more POINTS than any other driver in the course of a season. Aplying any other chapionship ranking logic is foolish as drivers would have responded differently.

This is why Bernie's logic has some merit. Not saying I agree with it, but if you want more exciting racing he has a point.

Some drivers dont exactly see it like that, Hamilton for example... he could have sat back and cruised to 3rd place Button style at Monza last year and collected the points but instead he attacked right to the end and even went over the edge and crashed... why? because attacking and the glory of passing the faster car for 2nd was more important to him than an already impressive 3rd place and whatever points came with it.

Bernie's logic makes alot of sense, although his system is also flawed, but less so than the current or any past points systems. Drivers, especially the ones in the top cars should be fighting for wins, not tip toeing around trying not to lose points. After watching the last 2 WDC's win the championship by driving around not trying to lose 5th place points... it is absurd when they should have been fighting for the win.

Yes, looking back at past years through the lens of a different "points system" is flawed, but dont assume all the drivers are out there circling around for points becaue I know for sure at least Senna & Hamilton didnt allways look at it like that. They are/were about wins first & formost, and the points system should make all drivers have that same view. Points should only be deciding between the cars in the back that have no chance of winning.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

So what your saying then is that going from 14th on the grid, to 4th and stuck behind a car with the same engine, is merely "doing the minimum"?


I suppose Hamiltons 4th to 2nd, not having to overtake anyone is the greatest feat of human skill witnessed at silverstone!

Fact is Hamilton is only 12 points ahead of Button. No one though that would happen, and I think it rancours with some Hamilton fans that Button can live with him.

Yes, JB did the minimum he should do at silverstone, and passing Rosberg would have actually been doing something... Rosberg's car was falling apart if you didnt notice, JA drove into the side of him while Rosberg was passing, parts were flying off his car on the straights... but JB still couldnt pull up his skirt to mount an attack.

Suppose what ever you want to, Hamilton had a good race finishing ahead of a faster RedBull and Ferrari.

Fact is I could not care less what the points are, like I said points counting is for lazy idiots.

Surely thats "points are for lazy idiots"?

And no mate, they are not. Read my previous post why, overcome it with legitmate argument. Secondly, the Ferrari is not faster than the Mclaren.
And I think Button finishing ahead of the "faster Ferrari and Red Bull" didnt enter your equation? Its not exclusive to Hamilton, but supposing you are happy with Hamilton doing that, you must be livid Button did too!

[vall]

right, and 2008 clearly showed that I don't read the standings; the champ for me is clearly Massa....

And you are entitled to see it like that if you wish, for me I saw LH pass the finsih line 1st in 6 races to Massa's 5(2008), LH clearly the champion.

May I recommend you to do your homework first? It is exactly the other way round, Massa had 6 wins, LH 5.

[andrew]

2008 wins were indeed 6-5 Massa.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

About Button being close to hamilton with race pace. Who came up with that fairy tale?
When did this happen?
If anything Hamilton's race pace gap is more than his qualifying gap. For those who support the fairy tale let's see the lap times. And no excuses about traffic.
Most of Jenson's races so far have been battle free.

Ringo I know I can debate with you so.....

I said Buttons race pace is very consistent. This is no fantasy its true!
Brawn himself was purring of his ability to keep a car in the zone, without killing its tyres. I wont question his opinion just yet.

As for no excuses of traffic, you clearly did not see Silverstone.
Because the Mercedes top speed is a good 5kmh(maybe more) faster than it was at Australia when Hamilton waltzed round the outside Rosberg!
I cannot say it enough that from race to race things do not remain static in F1.
A Mercedes in Australia at the start of the year sans F-duct, is easy meat on a straight or long curve. Not so at silverstone, where a Mercedes WITH F-duct and higher top speed is a different prospect altogether.

All Im saying is, at the moment, Button does not need to go balls to the wall.
He is doing his thing and only just behind Hamilton.
Anyone berating him should sit down take a nap, cool off, then realise their man is only 12 points ahead of this "Tortoise-snail" (reeeeally slow snail )

[ISLAMATRON]

2008 wins were indeed 6-5 Massa.

Notice I did not say wins... I said passed the finish line in 1st place... of course Massa had 6 "wins" after the stewards wrongly took away Hamilton's win at Spa and gave it to Massa who never lead 1 lap of that race.

Like I said Hamilton was clearly the champion... great season by Massa though

[ISLAMATRON]

And no mate, they are not. Read my previous post why, overcome it with legitmate argument. Secondly, the Ferrari is not faster than the Mclaren.
And I think Button finishing ahead of the "faster Ferrari and Red Bull" didnt enter your equation? Its not exclusive to Hamilton, but supposing you are happy with Hamilton doing that, you must be livid Button did too!

Alonso qualified higher than LH... so the Ferrari must be faster... at least at Silverstone and on that particular day.

Hamilton passed Alonso at the start, from the dirty side. Not a huge feat because Alonso had a bad start, but it was still something more than what JB had to do to get passed Alonso... which was the minimum... what he allways does.

[vall]

2008 wins were indeed 6-5 Massa.

Notice I did not say wins... I said passed the finish line in 1st place... of course Massa had 6 "wins" after the stewards wrongly took away Hamilton's win at Spa and gave it to Massa who never lead 1 lap of that race.

Like I said Hamilton was clearly the champion... great season by Massa though

back in the 80s, Ben Johnson crossed the finish line first many times. Later he was caught doping. Were his wins real? No IMO. LH was found wrong doing by the stewards and quite rightfully got a penalty. It happen to cost his the win.

[ISLAMATRON]

He was wrongly penalised, Charlie told the team he had sufficiently given back the position, which he did, huge difference between what LH did and Alonso did this weekend.

but that is all old news

[vall]

And no mate, they are not. Read my previous post why, overcome it with legitmate argument. Secondly, the Ferrari is not faster than the Mclaren.
And I think Button finishing ahead of the "faster Ferrari and Red Bull" didnt enter your equation? Its not exclusive to Hamilton, but supposing you are happy with Hamilton doing that, you must be livid Button did too!

Alonso qualified higher than LH... so the Ferrari must be faster... at least at Silverstone and on that particular day.

I like that! You do not allow for the possibility that Ferrari was slower, but Alonso's superior skills put the car were it was, don't you? But, I do and I think this is what actually happened

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

He was wrongly penalised, Charlie told the team he had sufficiently given back the position, which he did, huge difference between what LH did and Alonso did this weekend.

but that is all old news

I suppose feathering the throttle letting a guy through and gunning into a straight isnt getting an advantage!
How on earth would he have done that following Raikkonen through a corner may I ask?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FzNZSaKOsQ[/youtube]

[ringo]

Button has consistent pace that is why he beat barichello. He is a very good pilot.
What i was addressing though is the myth that his race pace is anywhere near Hamilton's.
Some believe the gap to him and Hamilton in a race would be constant if both were in clean air. This is not true. If it so happens that Button out qualifies hamilton again, and Lewis is right behind him, Button will not run away like how Vettel runs from Webber. Lewis will catch him like he did in australia, china, malaysia.

Button's silverstone pace was above that of the midfielders but it wasn't comparable to his teammate's. Keep in mind button had the lighter car, and was using full power when everyone pitted and he was out making time. I think his laps were a second or more slower.
Now he was not in traffic, nor battling during most of this time, a 2 or 3 second gap is relatively good air to drive in.

I don't particularly like Button's style of driving, but i kind of want him to do well, especially after his decent 2004 season. I respect him and even though he's not one of my favourites, it's hard not to pick him to complement a team.

Regardless, i find humour in figuring out how he's going to beat Hamilton on track.
In truth the 12 points gap is too close for comfort when coupled with Button's fortune, but if we look on how well Hamilton has done since china, he has really laid down some silent beatings on Button.

monaco 10 (not button's fault, but fell back to 11th anyway)
turkey 7
canada 7
europe 3
britain 6

He has really clawed back 33 points. 12points is not representative of the progress after the mclaren honeymoon period for Button. As soon as the other teams figured out the tyres and how button was playing the game, things went back to normal.

Hockenheim will be interesting because both drivers are good here. The track looks buttonish with the smooth stuff. But then there are those hard braking areas for Hamilton.

[ringo]

And no mate, they are not. Read my previous post why, overcome it with legitmate argument. Secondly, the Ferrari is not faster than the Mclaren.
And I think Button finishing ahead of the "faster Ferrari and Red Bull" didnt enter your equation? Its not exclusive to Hamilton, but supposing you are happy with Hamilton doing that, you must be livid Button did too!

Alonso qualified higher than LH... so the Ferrari must be faster... at least at Silverstone and on that particular day.

I like that! You do not allow for the possibility that Ferrari was slower, but Alonso's superior skills put the car were it was, don't you? But, I do and I think this is what actually happened

I think Rosberg confirmed that the ferrari was faster. I can't remember where exactly i read that. But i think he is right. Alonso's skills did put the car where it was, but take Lewis and Alonso out of the equation and then look on where Button and Massa put theirs.
Don't forget Button finished ahead of the ferrari and redbulls becuase of badluck on their part. He didn't race them at all. In fact he never did race them the whole season. The one time was in malaysia and we saw how that turned out.