Is Hamilton desperate or what?

[ringo]

He was wrongly penalised, Charlie told the team he had sufficiently given back the position, which he did, huge difference between what LH did and Alonso did this weekend.

but that is all old news

I suppose feathering the throttle letting a guy through and gunning into a straight isnt getting an advantage!
How on earth would he have done that following Raikkonen through a corner may I ask?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FzNZSaKOsQ[/youtube]

Of course he could have. He could have came out side by side in that corner even.
Put left front on the grass and lean on kimi through the turn.

He gave back position to the letter of the rules and that is a fact. Check the regulations then. No such thing as giving back an equitable distance or breathing space. The rule is to give back the position and that's it. Kimi's transponder would register ahead of Hamilton's and that means kimi got back the place.
It's not Lewis' fault kimi couldn't take the pressure and crashed out.

Kimi was foolish to weave. He would have kept the place if he settled.

[vall]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FzNZSaKOsQ[/youtube]

Of course he could have. He could have came out side by side in that corner even.
Put left front on the grass and lean on kimi through the turn.

He gave back position to the letter of the rules and that is a fact. Check the regulations then. No such thing as giving back an equitable distance or breathing space. The rule is to give back the position and that's it.

you are completely wrong on that. If you look carefully, after exit o the turn Kimi's rare wing was never ahead even 10cm of LH's front wing. Explain to us how this could have happened and LH braked and exited the corner behind Kimi, as he should have done and not cutting the corner. Of course he took advantage of the situation. At the time Charlie explain that in the meetings with the driver before race, they explain the if you overtake by cutting a corner you should restore the situation as it was before entering the corner.

PS can you post a link to the regulation where this matter is discussed?

[andrew]

He was wrongly penalised

WRONG!!

Hamilton passed by going off the track. Maybe he gave the place back but he didn't exactly drop back all that far. Face it your hero was caught being naughty. Massa kept his nose clean and got the win. Anyway it is irrelevant as Hamilton aquired the silverware at the end of the season.

[ringo]

He was wrongly penalised

WRONG!!

Hamilton passed by going off the track. Maybe he gave the place back but he didn't exactly drop back all that far. Face it your hero was caught being naughty. Massa kept his nose clean and got the win. Anyway it is irrelevant as Hamilton aquired the silverware at the end of the season.

where in the regulations specifies the distance?
And how far back was he when he was beside Kimi in the turn. should he restore the state of play and return beside Kimi?

I am being totally objective here, and to the letter of the rule. He was robbed of a win. Such a simple offense should not take the end of race to judge. It wasn't even an offense. A rookie embarrassed Ferrari, with kimi sliding off in the end, and that's why he got the penalty.
Knowing Hamilton, he admits when he is wrong. To this day he believes he was robbed of a win and he openly says it.

here are some of the regulations. I am still looking for any specifics from 2007 regarding a driver going overtaking off track.

16) INCIDENTS
16.1 "Incident" means any occurrence or series of occurrences involving one or more drivers, or any action by
any driver, which is reported to the stewards by the race director (or noted by the stewards and referred to
the race director for investigation) which :
- necessitated the suspension of a race under Article 41 ;
- constituted a breach of these Sporting Regulations or the Code ;
- caused a false start by one or more cars ;
- caused a collision ;
- forced a driver off the track ;
- illegitimately prevented a legitimate overtaking manoeuvre by a driver ;
- illegitimately impeded another driver during overtaking.
Unless it was completely clear that a driver was in breach of any of the above, any incidents involving more
than one car will normally be investigated after the race.

the offence is in the code of driving conduct on circuits, i believe.

this is for 2010 but i'm looking for 2007

Overtaking, car control and track limits
a) A car alone on the track may use the full width of the said
track, however, as soon as it is caught by a car which is about
to lap it the driver must allow the faster driver past at the first
possible opportunity.
If the driver who has been caught does not seem to make
full use of the rear-view mirrors, flag marshals will display
the waved blue flag to indicate that the faster driver wants to
overtake.
Any driver who appears to ignore the blue flags will be reported
to the Stewards of the meeting.
b) Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be carried
out on either the right or the left.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such
more than one change of direction to defend a position,
deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or
any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.
Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will
be reported to the stewards of the meeting.

c) Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of
doubt:
- the white lines defining the track edges are considered to
be part of the track but the kerbs are not and
- a driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the
car remains in contact with the track.
Should a car leave the track for any reason, and without
prejudice to 2(d) below, the driver may rejoin. However, this
may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining
any advantage.

[ell66]

He was wrongly penalised

WRONG!!

Hamilton passed by going off the track. Maybe he gave the place back but he didn't exactly drop back all that far. Face it your hero was caught being naughty. Massa kept his nose clean and got the win. Anyway it is irrelevant as Hamilton aquired the silverware at the end of the season.

where in the regulations specifies the distance?
And how far back was he when he was beside Kimi in the turn. should he restore the state of play and return beside Kimi?

I am being totally objective here, and to the letter of the rule. He was robbed of a win. Such a simple offense should not take the end of race to judge. It wasn't even an offense. A rookie embarrassed Ferrari, with kimi sliding off in the end, and that's why he got the penalty.
Knowing Hamilton, he admits when he is wrong. To this day he believes he was robbed of a win and he openly says it.

here are some of the regulations. I am still looking for any specifics from 2007 regarding a driver going overtaking off track.

16) INCIDENTS
16.1 "Incident" means any occurrence or series of occurrences involving one or more drivers, or any action by
any driver, which is reported to the stewards by the race director (or noted by the stewards and referred to
the race director for investigation) which :
- necessitated the suspension of a race under Article 41 ;
- constituted a breach of these Sporting Regulations or the Code ;
- caused a false start by one or more cars ;
- caused a collision ;
- forced a driver off the track ;
- illegitimately prevented a legitimate overtaking manoeuvre by a driver ;
- illegitimately impeded another driver during overtaking.
Unless it was completely clear that a driver was in breach of any of the above, any incidents involving more
than one car will normally be investigated after the race.

the offence is in the code of driving conduct on circuits, i believe.

this is for 2010 but i'm looking for 2007

Overtaking, car control and track limits
a) A car alone on the track may use the full width of the said
track, however, as soon as it is caught by a car which is about
to lap it the driver must allow the faster driver past at the first
possible opportunity.
If the driver who has been caught does not seem to make
full use of the rear-view mirrors, flag marshals will display
the waved blue flag to indicate that the faster driver wants to
overtake.
Any driver who appears to ignore the blue flags will be reported
to the Stewards of the meeting.
b) Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be carried
out on either the right or the left.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such
more than one change of direction to defend a position,
deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or
any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.
Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will
be reported to the stewards of the meeting.

c) Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of
doubt:
- the white lines defining the track edges are considered to
be part of the track but the kerbs are not and
- a driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the
car remains in contact with the track.
Should a car leave the track for any reason, and without
prejudice to 2(d) below, the driver may rejoin. However, this
may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining
any advantage.

are you for real? it happened in 08 not 07.

[vall]

He was wrongly penalised

WRONG!!

Hamilton passed by going off the track. Maybe he gave the place back but he didn't exactly drop back all that far. Face it your hero was caught being naughty. Massa kept his nose clean and got the win. Anyway it is irrelevant as Hamilton aquired the silverware at the end of the season.

where in the regulations specifies the distance?
And how far back was he when he was beside Kimi in the turn. should he restore the state of play and return beside Kimi?

I am being totally objective here, and to the letter of the rule. He was robbed of a win. Such a simple offense should not take the end of race to judge. It wasn't even an offense. A rookie embarrassed Ferrari, with kimi sliding off in the end, and that's why he got the penalty.

If LH acted properly and braked, then on the exit of the straight he should have been behind Kimi. Considering that then Kimmi would have accelerated earlier then LH, this would have given Kimmi at least 10 advantage on the straight. But what happened now was that LH was in the tail of Kimmi. So, yes, by cutting the corner he did get advantage and was rightfully penalized. Remove the colored glasses!

Knowing Hamilton, he admits when he is wrong. To this day he believes he was robbed of a win and he openly says it.

Knowing him, he would never admit he was wrong. Reference: post Aus 2009 events

[myurr]

Remove the colored glasses!

Do you believe that Charlie Whiting was wearing coloured glasses when he advised McLaren that he felt Lewis had complied with the regulations?

[vall]

Remove the colored glasses!

Do you believe that Charlie Whiting was wearing coloured glasses when he advised McLaren that he felt Lewis had complied with the regulations?

CW can only advise. The final word is of the stewards

[myurr]

Remove the colored glasses!

Do you believe that Charlie Whiting was wearing coloured glasses when he advised McLaren that he felt Lewis had complied with the regulations?

CW can only advise. The final word is of the stewards

I don't disagree, but you say that anyone who thinks that Hamilton conceded enough in that overtake has 'coloured glasses'. As Charlie Whiting is one of those people, do you think he is a rabid Lewis Hamilton / McLaren fan?

[vall]

I don't disagree, but you say that anyone who thinks that Hamilton conceded enough in that overtake has 'coloured glasses'.

you got that one right well, perhaps not everyone

As Charlie Whiting is one of those people, do you think he is a rabid Lewis Hamilton / McLaren fan?

he said that at the heat at the moment, I suppose. He had other things to do as well. He saw LH giving back the place and says he thought it was OK. No time for careful investigation. It happened after the race and the stewards made their decision.

[myurr]

As Charlie Whiting is one of those people, do you think he is a rabid Lewis Hamilton / McLaren fan?

he said that at the heat at the moment, I suppose. He had other things to do as well. He saw LH giving back the place and says he thought it was OK. No time for careful investigation. It happened after the race and the stewards made their decision.

Okay so let me get this straight... because you guess, and mostly because it suits your view not through anything he's ever said, that he's since changed his mind since then CW is okay, but anyone else who agreed with his 'heat of battle' assessment is a swivel eyed lunatic? And you accuse others of wearing rose tinted glasses?

[vall]

As Charlie Whiting is one of those people, do you think he is a rabid Lewis Hamilton / McLaren fan?

he said that at the heat at the moment, I suppose. He had other things to do as well. He saw LH giving back the place and says he thought it was OK. No time for careful investigation. It happened after the race and the stewards made their decision.

Okay so let me get this straight... because you guess, and mostly because it suits your view not through anything he's ever said, that he's since changed his mind since then CW is okay, but anyone else who agreed with his 'heat of battle' assessment is a swivel eyed lunatic? And you accuse others of wearing rose tinted glasses?

apparently, when looked into it more carefully after the race, CW and the stewards changed their minds. This is a FACT, no? But you overlook it and decide to choose what CW initially said to McLaren, because it fits your view! I am fine with that! But if you really remove the colored glasses and examine the video carefully, you will see that LH was only able to overtake Kimmi because by cutting the corner he could immediately be on the tail of the Ferrari and attach later.

[myurr]

Okay so let me get this straight... because you guess, and mostly because it suits your view not through anything he's ever said, that he's since changed his mind since then CW is okay, but anyone else who agreed with his 'heat of battle' assessment is a swivel eyed lunatic? And you accuse others of wearing rose tinted glasses?

apparently, when looked into it more carefully after the race, CW and the stewards changed their minds. This is a FACT, no? But you overlook it and decide to choose what CW initially said to McLaren, because it fits your view! I am fine with that! But if you really remove the colored glasses and examine the video carefully, you will see that LH was only able to overtake Kimmi because by cutting the corner he could immediately be on the tail of the Ferrari and attach later.

Actually Charlie doesn't make a ruling as far as I understand. He can refer a driver to the stewards, he can present information to them, but he doesn't actually rule.

Personally I believe that Lewis would have made it past regardless for two reasons: he was much better on the brakes into turn 1 at that point; and as Lewis was passing behind Kimi the Ferrari suddenly had a load of wheel spin causing Kimi to lift off and correct. That was why Lewis was able to pull alongside so quickly.

It was because it was so borderline, and the stewards ruling was so controversial, that Charlie introduced the new guidance that drivers should give the position back AND wait a further corner before trying again. Under that new guidance then Hamilton would have broken the rules and should have been punished, but that guidance was not in place at the time.

[ringo]

thank you.
It was not in place at the time, and Vall skipped around the issue of what distance was specified to give back. Which also is non existent even in the new regulations.

Hamilton was slightly beside Kimi in that turn, becuase he out braked him. And would have at least kept his front right wheel in front of the ferrari's rear wheel though that turn, while only putting the left side wheels in the grass.
We've seen that happen many times with 2 cars going through a turn, so i don't see why it's not likely that hamilton would have come out of the turn in more or less the same position that he gave back to Kimi.

It was just blatant robery. Kimi in the ferrari spun out and crashed embarrassingly after a fiercer battle and Hamilton in the Mclaren came out triumphant. Every time i watch that incident, i feel it for ferrari fans.

[myurr]

For me it was not just McLaren fans that were robbed - all fans should have been able to enjoy and celebrate the epic battle between those two drivers at the top of their game. That was one of the most dramatic laps ever with two drivers struggling to control their machinery whilst having to fight it out.

I would have actually preferred it if Kimi had been able to make it to the finish to claim second place as in my view he and Hamilton were by far the best two drivers on the day. Unfortunately that dramatic fight was sullied by the FIA and the stewards who instead awarded first place to Massa who, like him or not, had been pretty nondescript in that particular race.