2012 European GP - Valencia

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i70q7m7ghw
i70q7m7ghw
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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Ray wrote:The problem with the Lewis/Maldonado incident is that for some reason it's deemed acceptable to drive as though someone alongside you on the outside doesn't exist. Lewis had every right to defend his position, but I don't understand why it's accepted that he can drive the corner exit like Maldonado didn't exist on track. Driving a normal racing line with someone on your outside is basically forcing them off track intentionally. It doesn't matter who is in that situation, what cars or involded, teammates or no, or what position is being fought over. Driving people off the track because it's "your" corner because you are on the inside is dangerous. I don't think Lewis was at fault or Maldonado, I think it's a completely stupid and selfish way to drive and it shouldn't be allowed. If two cars enter a corner even, then the driver on the inside should not be allowed to drive off the corner like the other guy doesn't exist.

At track like Valencia is dangerous because the walls are so close, and where the walls aren't there are big speed bumps that can easily launch a car. Maldonado was forced into a situation where he shouldn't have been put and he ran the risk of being shoved directly into those speed bumps. I don't think Lewis or Maldonado were malicious or wrong, I think it being acceptable to basically drive someone off track is the problem. Maybe it comes from my early racing days on ovals. You shove someone around like that on an oval, and you're gonna kill someone. The risk is less on a road course, but it's still no less potentially deadly. Just because Lewis was on the inside doesn't mean he can just drive wide like Maldonado didn't exist I don't think. It takes two to tango and they both caused the accident in my eyes.
Maldonado should not have been alongside Hamilton for the second of those two corners, it's not possible to make a move like that without driving outside the limits of the track. Hamilton shouldn't have to leave room on the inside unless Pastor was able to put his car there. Having the outside of the previous corner does not equal having the inside of the next corner, the only reason Pastor was in that position was because he took the corner faster than you normally would.

Imagine Hamilton's car didn't exist and Pastor drove that line on his own, he would never have legitimately made the corner without leaving the track, he was driving too fast and understeered off the circuit, hit the curb and then understeered in to the side of Hamilton's car.

You can't go wide on that corner and then try and take it at racing speed, he should have lifted and fallen in behind Hamilton, and then just overtaken him at the next corner.

It's like getting on the outside of someone on a chicane, you don't automatically win the inside of the second half of the chicane, the other driver has the racing line.

It's pretty bog standard race craft to be honest.

marcush.
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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jesus christ ..williams was in such a good position to score so many points.Is there a ways to get get Ruby back? sure he would be top 5 in the championship right now.

Goran2812
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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Mr Alcatraz wrote:
MuseF1 wrote:Accidentally posted this in the maldonado thread. did anybody see three marshalls on track pushing vettels car away without yellow flags. im pretty sure i seen a green flag next to them as they pushed his car
Yes, heroic Spaniards (or idiots) putting their lives on the line (and that of the field) to keep Alonso's gap by getting the car off the track before Charlie Brown could send out the safety car.
The whole country of Spain cheated in this race. :lol:
Plus Ferrari has a lot of nerve speaking to a Spaniard in Italian over the radio.
The whole country of Italy cheated as well. :-({|= 8)
You are joking, right? O.o
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Mr Alcatraz
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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Goran2812 wrote:
Mr Alcatraz wrote:
MuseF1 wrote:Accidentally posted this in the maldonado thread. did anybody see three marshalls on track pushing vettels car away without yellow flags. im pretty sure i seen a green flag next to them as they pushed his car
Yes, heroic Spaniards (or idiots) putting their lives on the line (and that of the field) to keep Alonso's gap by getting the car off the track before Charlie Brown could send out the safety car.
The whole country of Spain cheated in this race. :lol:
Plus Ferrari has a lot of nerve speaking to a Spaniard in Italian over the radio.
The whole country of Italy cheated as well. :-({|= 8)
You are joking, right? O.o
What do you think?
Those who believe in telekinetics raise my hand

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Chuckjr
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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[quote="GrizzleBoy"]Since when was it a racing offence/unacceptable to not let a guy pass you because he's faster?

When your trying to win the war, not the race.

When you have a championship on the line and you realize you simply cannot maintain the position so you wisely choose to give it up to ensure you take points--to win the war in the end.

Lewis has repeatedly said he's wanting to just bag points if a win is not possible. If that's truly the case, his choice Sunday was not in alignment with his stated philosophy he has "embraced" this year b/c of last years antics. He must be logical and drop the ego racer mentality and go with the wise long term choices rather than the heat of the moment ego driven foolishness.

Honestly, I'm not sure he can do that with the support he's placed around himself and the cluster f'ed team he drives for. Something's gotta give if he wants to take the WDC ever again.
Watching F1 since 1986.

Speedster
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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Does anyone know what the top speed of the Red Bull was this weekend?

Because I was wondering, was Webber slowing down for the yellow flags?

Image

fiohaa
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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MuseF1 wrote:Accidentally posted this in the maldonado thread. did anybody see three marshalls on track pushing vettels car away without yellow flags. im pretty sure i seen a green flag next to them as they pushed his car
youre right - this for me was shocking.

my butt was clenched watching that - its probably the most dangerous thing ive ever seen. The camera had a great shot of the marshalls pushing vettels car, and behind them was a green flag again. Its like they were in 'half a yellow zone' when really that whole zone should have been double waved yellows.
The cars still looked like they were going pretty fast as well.

maybe they did slow down a lot, i dont know.

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NormanBates
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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My take on the Hamilton-Maldonado incident:

As they reach the first curve of the chicane, they're side by side, but Hamilton pushes Maldonado out of the race. Doesn't leave enough space, and Maldonado has to go all-4-wheels out of the track. Bad Hamilton, no cookie.

Then, in the second turn of the chicane, Maldonado goes back to the track and crashes into Hamilton. Very bad Maldonado, no cookie for you either.

If I had the choice, they both would get penalties. Maldonado's might be slightly bigger, as his move was even more dangeous. But also, if Hamilton had left enough room for him in the first turn...

Sjamaan
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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NormanBates wrote:My take on the Hamilton-Maldonado incident:

As they reach the first curve of the chicane, they're side by side, but Hamilton pushes Maldonado out of the race. Doesn't leave enough space, and Maldonado has to go all-4-wheels out of the track. Bad Hamilton, no cookie.

Then, in the second turn of the chicane, Maldonado goes back to the track and crashes into Hamilton. Very bad Maldonado, no cookie for you either.

If I had the choice, they both would get penalties. Maldonado's might be slightly bigger, as his move was even more dangeous. But also, if Hamilton had left enough room for him in the first turn...
Agreed. And I seriously doubt that Alonso or Vettel would have had the same problem if they were in the same position as Hamilton in that situation. You let him pass and you collect the points you so much need. Hamilton is a hell of a driver, maybe the fastest of them all, but he lacks the "whole picture mentality" that true champions need to have.

marcush.
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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[quote="Speedster"]Does anyone know what the top speed of the Red Bull was this weekend?

Because I was wondering, was Webber slowing down for the yellow flags?


Webbers was 312 ...so he was barely lifting...

Webber was wearing a smile on his face when asked about the sitzuation -being sure Schumacher would be penalised...sorry chaps that was more Webber deserving a penalty than Schumacher.

Schum,acher defended brilliantly again ,as he always does these days.Perfectly measured speeds controlling the guy behind and forcing him to do what´s needed to prevent him from making a move ...he is really good these days.
Mind you in his first career defending was not on his agenda very often and when ...he played foul (Hill,Villeneuve for championships)these days he is plain better in these situations.

zeph
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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myurr wrote:
zeph wrote:Of course Hamilton is not without blame. He could have avoided that situation. But Maldonado was too hot-headed. He could have and would he gotten past Hamilton if he had kept his cool. I'd be inclined to dismiss it as a racing incident, but I feel the penalty is just and fair.
He could only have avoided the situation by backing out of the fight completely and simply letting Maldonado past. Once you start doing that you're giving a green light to all the drivers to just dive up the inside expecting you to get out of the way. You cannot do that and expect to be a top racing driver and long term you increase the risk of collision as drivers get more and more ambitious in passing you expecting you to be the one to back out of it.
His tires were shot. It was unrealistic of him to think he could keep Maldonado at bay. Same thing happened to Alonso in Canada, but he chose to accept fewer points rather than risking to lose it all by desperately defending an untenable position.

Like I said, I do not disagree with Maldonado's penalty, but Hamilton has himself to blame for not getting any points at all.
Tomba wrote: On Hamilton, I do think he should have been wise enough to let Maldonado past, like Alonso did at the end of the Canadian GP. There's no point in fighting a car that's 3 seconds a lap faster. I still believe Maldonado was at fault, but Hamilton's ruthless defence cost him his own points as well.
Exactly.

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FakeAlonso
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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I wonder how Vettel made a pit stop and he still was first? He missed the first run of the safety car when all the other got in and then he made the pit stop. Whats weird is that the safety car was waiting for him rather then going around normal SF speed.

Any idea how that happened?

Phillyred
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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In regards to the Hamilton/Maldonado incident.... It was a racing incident period. If there was a wall near the curb on the corner you can bet Maldonado would have braked more appropriately and tucked in behind Lewis. Lewis was following and defending his racing line. Lewis is the type of driver who fights to the end and maybe this time it worked against him. I believe Maldonado would have probably passed Lewis in the DRS zone anyway before the race was over, but I guess we will never know. Perhaps a driver like Button would have given Maldonado more room, but that's the difference between Hamilton and Button and I truly believe that difference is what makes Lewis a more competitive racer. I can't imagine Vettel, Alonso, or Schumacher would have done anything different.

GrizzleBoy
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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Forget championships and forget points.

A time when a driver is berated for being unable to relinquish his instinctive passion for actual competitive racing and his determination to fight and make others fight to get where they want to be (as opposed to just letting people past on a formality) is a time when racing drivers are being pushed out of the sport and being replaced by people just doing their job. Something Jacques Villeneuve hinted at in Canada. Many drivers seem very "meh" about what they're doing.

You can argue that Hamilton should have just let people by him, but I cant accept that he was wrong to put up a fight and create some actual racing for the fans.

How much actual exciting fighting for position did we see from the leading guys on the track apart from Hamilton defending against Grosjean, Raikkonen and Maldonado?

On another note, I'm beginning to wonder if Vergne's crash with Kovaleinen was a result of him being too agressive on the steering through the fast corner with his DRS open, losing the back end causing the front to point in towards Kovaleinen and then the rest is history?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uojdxoRhXVU[/youtube]

The more I watch it and the more I watch Vergne's movements in the cockpit, the more I think it might be the case.

Not saying its an excuse, Kovaleinen deserves to not get knocked into so much as he has been, but I cant see the reason why Vergne would do it intentionally and expect to not ruin his own race either via stewards or via damage.
Last edited by GrizzleBoy on 25 Jun 2012, 23:38, edited 1 time in total.

Phillyred
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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All I know is that as "exciting" as this season has been with 7 different winners in 8 races- something seems awry.. I suppose the FIA and Charlie Whiting have accomplished what they intended to do a couple years ago to make F1 more competitive and entertaining, but DRS and these highly sensitive Pirelli tires have really left a weird taste in my mouth. It seems to me that the best strategy for teams like Ferrari and Mclaren would be to save their soft tires in qualifying and push through the field using DRS and the quicker tire option. However, you look at Vettel and his RB8 and it's just a magic combination. :?