2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[wuzak]

Well, W - that's what a couple of recent posts were considering..

At what point does engine balance/harmonic integrity/mechanical longevity - become worth such a trade-off?

& if so, would such a device be able to be incorporated into a shaft used for other functions as well,
- in order to reduce inertia/frictional losses?

I should imagine that the main issue, especially with driving accesories, would be torsional vibration of the crankshaft due to uneven firing intervals.

Torsional vibrations could be isolated with flexible shafting - as was done for driving propellers and accessories iin WW2 aero engines. It may also be that the high frequency sue to the rpms make the issue less in any case.

The lightened components and careful design of the crankshaft counterweights mean that shaking forces are likely to be less than for large road car equivalents as well.

[J.A.W.]

Aye, a 'quill' shaft.. as utilized in aero-engines.. as you note W..

& indeed - in that Cosworth F750 design for Norton.. ..as can be seen via the link - in my previous post in this thread..

[hollus]

Talking of trade-offs and following on from another thread:

What do you guys estimate that the power difference would be between an engine (and transmission) meant to last for 5 races in 2015 and an engine (and transmission) designed for only one race?
How much extra power would the shorter lifespan create to compensate for accepting (by design) starting from the pit lane or 10 places back in every single race bar the first?

[Tommy Cookers]

I should imagine that the main issue, especially with driving accesories, would be torsional vibration of the crankshaft due to uneven firing intervals.
Torsional vibrations could be isolated with flexible shafting - as was done for driving propellers and accessories iin WW2 aero engines. It may also be that the high frequency sue to the rpms make the issue less in any case.
The lightened components and careful design of the crankshaft counterweights mean that shaking forces are likely to be less than for large road car equivalents as well

not wishing to appear adversarial to recent posters ..... but .....
there will still be torsional vibration with even firing intervals, eveness guarantees nothing
eg 60, 65, and 80 deg etc V6s have won many WDCs, and are all more uneven firing than the 90 deg V6
similarly their vibration is worse, and the uneveness of their inertial loads (from reciprocation)

counterweights reduce main bearing loads and thereby reduce bending stresses on the crankshaft
though they somewhat degrade the torsional frequency of the crankshaft

counterbalance shafts waste a lot of power unless the forces to be counterbalanced are low, but then they are not needed anyway
the Norton Cosworth needed huge counterbalancing, but only because the salesman types demanded even firing
modern motorcycles tend to have a single CB weight running at engine speed, not 2 weights
and often a cross-plane crank to reduce the required CB (or a 180 deg crank of course)
the Norton people could have chosen a better slice of DFV

[J.A.W.]

Current F1 rules require a level of engine core longevity well beyond what was previously the norm.
Methods of quelling harmful harmonics are - surely - part of the development protocols?

& I don't know if you've ever been for a ride on a 180` 4-stroke vertical twin bike T-C, but they feel/sound
awful compared to other crankshaft configurations..

That Cosworth -Norton was a poor compromise in several respects, but it -did sort- of redeem its self in later
competition against other 4T twins, & it was never going to cut it against rapidly developing 2T G.P. machines..

[Brian Coat]

Re: Vibration
Compared to a 20,000 rpm flat crank V8, shouldn't the vibration on these V6s be a (relative) walk in the park?
Cosworth CA had about 14 vibration damping devices on it?
The firing order was set for performance, then the vibrations dealt with.

[ringo]

This power consumed by balance shafts. Instead of saying it wastes alot, why not post a figure?
If it waste only 2hp, i would employ it. It's really based on the pros and cons. Can't eliminate the idea without quantifying it.
The exhaust thread was a good example. The log manifold was seen as completely undesirable for racing, yet fast forward 2 years and the best power plant has log manifolds.
So please quantify what you think is not a tolerable power draw for a balance shaft system.

[Brian Coat]

"If it wasted only 2hp, I'd use balancer shafts"

An F1 engine designer wouldn't. They'd sell their granny for 2hp!

[Tommy Cookers]

large 4 inline motorcycle engines eg John McGuiness's Honda have CB for the secondary inertia forces cost at least 3 hp
(they are removed in race classes eg TT when allowed)
these CBs run at twice engine rpm but the forces are 25% of the primary (which is eliminated at source in the inline 4)
primary imbalance eg 360 deg twin Fiat 500 needs CB forces 4 times the above (though at engine rpm)
costing a guesstimated 5% of engine power
how can a balance shaft generating forces equal and opposite to total net recip forces on such a crankshaft .....
not have a power consumption of the order of the crankshafts power consumption ?

now we can see the 90 deg V6 is a quite well balanced engine (or a very well balanced one if balance is the design priority)
adding an (engine rpm) CB shaft might cost 2-3% of crankshaft power

@J.A.W
many years riding 180 deg 4 strokes up to 500cc
the motorcycle exists today because of Honda sportifying the C77 0 deg into the CB77 180 deg more than 50 years ago
though people had suggested 75 deg as a viable improvement of the (0deg) British way
and BMW's pivoted CB arm has lower losses than CB shaft(s) would for that job

[J.A.W.]

T-C, I never could tolerate that unpleasant off-beat 180`4T busy-buzzy feel, its bad - even in a 4 cyl..
Oddly enough it is much more bearable in 2-strokes, although still never as nice as 120`sets of 3..

& I don't accept your version of what Honda did for motorcycling..
..what was their slogan.. "You meet the most boring people on a Honda" - I may be paraphrasing a bit there..

Honda made motorcycles as a consumer appliance, much as Toyota did for cars..

..interesting that Honda cars have always been less boring than ( non-Yamaha engineered) Toyotas though..

& Yamaha was one of the 1st to market a modern balance shaft equipped machine.. .. the TX 750..
..which was a 360`twin - & a Nippon attempt to emulate the Norton Commando feel..
..but ended up as a kind of weird worst-of 750-4 Honda/Norton combination - heavy, slow & unreliable..

That BMW CB system allows for the 360` even firing feel, but AFAIR, it too - is based on old British ideas,
just as the balance shaft device originally was - by Lanchester - a century or more ago..

[pmneo]

http://www.motorsport-magazin.com just showed two Photos of the Mercedes AMG PU:




It looks like the real PU ...

[Facts Only]

That is definitely the real thing... although missing a couple of sensitive ancilliaries.

I'm surprised that has been put out, I know images have been leaked but those pictures are clear enough to allow for scaled measurements to be taken.

[Forza]

Here are HiRes versions of those two photos of Mercedes AMG PU:
PU106A Hybrid - 1
PU106A Hybrid - 2

And two photos from AMuS for a comparison:

[chip engineer]

That is definitely the real thing... although missing a couple of sensitive ancilliaries.

I'm surprised that has been put out, I know images have been leaked but those pictures are clear enough to allow for scaled measurements to be taken.

Maybe the reason for making the images available is related to receiving this award:

Mercedes-AMG HPP awarded Dewar Trophy for PU106A Hybrid F1 Power Unit
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/10 ... dewar.html

"The UK’s Royal Automobile Club (RAC) has awarded the prestigious Dewar Trophy, presented for outstanding technical achievement in the automotive industry, to Mercedes-AMG High Performance Powertrains (HPP) for the design of the PU106A Hybrid Formula One Power Unit. (Earlier post.)

The team at HPP was recognized for its development of the most advantageous powertrain within the new Formula One regulations. The aim for 2014 was to raise the engine efficiency from around 29% for the previous normally aspirated 2.4-liter V8 to better than 40% with the new 1.6-liter V6 Hybrid turbo. The successful design, research and teamwork resulted in the Mercedes-Benz PU106A Hybrid Power Unit, which has not only been the dominant powertrain in this first season under the new Formula One rules, but is also arguably among the most thermally efficient gasoline powertrains ever produced, with a claimed thermal efficiency of greater than 40%.
...
The Dewar Trophy, which was first awarded in 1906, goes to an outstanding British technical achievement in the automotive field during the preceding year, or one that is known to have reached a significant stage of development, application or utilization during the year. For 2014, entries for the Dewar Trophy were considered in the following categories:

Internal combustion engine cycle efficiency improvements
Vehicle electronics and electric systems
Intelligent transport systems
Material developments
Safety and sustainability
Race car technology"

[toraabe]

That is definitely the real thing... although missing a couple of sensitive ancilliaries.

I'm surprised that has been put out, I know images have been leaked but those pictures are clear enough to allow for scaled measurements to be taken.

Now it's time for the other three to come up with their versions