What will come after the 2.4 V8?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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ecapox
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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I would love if they allowed different engines into F1. For example:

You could run a 2.4 V8 limited to 18,000 rpm
You could run a 2.0 V8 with unlimited rpm
You could run a 1.4 turbo I4 with a max of 1.5bar (the 1.5 bar is a guess, i have no idea what would be comparable to the other 2 engines.)

Once you pick it, you have to stick with it, for cost reasons, for an entire season. For a budget team you could run any engine for the past 2-3 years and keep costs WAY down and probably still be relatively on par with the other two engines. For new teams or ones ready to bet on 00, they could choose the 1.4l and see how far they could push it.

These three engine scenarios would allow the creativity that once made F1 great and technologically superior to all other forms of motorsports. The bland engine freeze and all standard engines makes F1 kinda bland from th tech department.

If it wasnt for the aero guys, this website's forums would be dead.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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WhiteBlue wrote:
xpensive wrote: the volumeflow is directly dependent on the amount of fuel burnt.
I don't think that you can say that. The fuel can always be burned lean or rich in any F1 system that we know. The dials on the steering wheels of current F1 cars have a massive impact on fuel consumption. And the variation of oxygen always drags five times the amount of inert gases through the engine. So the gas flow is never directly proportional to the fuel burnt.
Edis wrote:
ringo wrote:Mass cannot be created nor destroyed, so it's logical a leaner mixture has less mass.
For any given power level, a lean mixture will result in a higher exhaust flow than a rich mixture.
To use all the oxygen in 1 kg of air we need 68 grams of gasoline thus the total exhaust mass will be 1068 grams. Now, if we burn the fuel at lambda 0.5 rather than lambda 1, we need to add 136 grams of gasoline instead of 68 grams, giving a total 1136 gram exhaust. If we go lean to lambda 1.5 instead we will still need the 68 grams gasoline to maintain the power level, then we need 1499 grams of air adding to a total exhaust mass of 1567 gram.
Edis computed the total mass for burning a constant fuel mass at different lambdas. If you reduce the fuel mass by making the mixture lean the air mass will increase much faster than the fuel mass is reduced. Or expressed in throttle position; you have to go much higher throttle positions to get the same power.

On the issue of what kind of engines will be used we know the following basic data from FOTA:
  • turbo charged
  • petrol engine
  • 1.5-1.8 L displacement
  • direct fuel injection
  • 700 bhp target power
  • integrated KERS
  • HERS an option
  • target fuel consumption -25% compared to 2.4 L V8
  • fuel consumption will become a competitive advantage
We know that comparable engines of the last turbo formula had 4 and 6 cylinders. A lower cylinder count is giving higher efficiency. So we can safely assume that we will rather see 3 and 4 cylinder engines that five or six cylinders.

We know that turbos do not rely on revs alone to generate power but can make power by higher compression. We also know that big efficiency gains can be achieved by more elaborate valve control which works better at lower engine speed. It follows that the new engines will probably run on lower rev like 10,000 - 12,000 rpm.

We know that engines are supposed to become 5% more fuel efficient each year to achieve a 50% reduction of fuel consumption by 2018. This will only work by constant engine development.

To stay on top of cost for race teams the number of engines per year will have to remain as it is or even decrease. Cost for customers will remain capped and resources for engine manufacturers who run a race team will also remain capped as per RRA. Manufacturing cost of engines will not be as much a concern as development cost.

Minimum weight of the car will probably go down compared to 640 kg of 2011. Starting weight of the car will go down significantly with 25% less fuel.

New wheels, tyres and suspensions are planned with an increase of wheel rims to 18 or 19 inches. Flexible and movable aerodynamic devices may be allowed to help aerodynamic efficiency.
ecapox wrote:I would love if they allowed different engines into F1. For example:

You could run a 2.4 V8 limited to 18,000 rpm
You could run a 2.0 V8 with unlimited rpm
You could run a 1.4 turbo I4 with a max of 1.5bar (the 1.5 bar is a guess, i have no idea what would be comparable to the other 2 engines.)
I do not see that happening. FOTA have an interest to get relatively uniform competition conditions without big surprises and without lots of stress over equivalence formulae. It would not suit their agenda to have different formulae in parallel.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

xpensive
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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xpensive wrote:Edis wrote;

To use all the oxygen in 1 kg of air we need 68 grams of gasoline thus the total exhaust mass will be 1068 grams. Now, if we burn the fuel at lambda 0.5 rather than lambda 1, we need to add 136 grams of gasoline instead of 68 grams, giving a total 1136 gram exhaust. If we go lean to lambda 1.5 instead we will still need the 68 grams gasoline to maintain the power level, then we need 1499 grams of air adding to a total exhaust mass of 1567 gram.

One kg of air represents a volume of almost one m^3 entering the engine, but how much will the volume have increased by burning 68/136 gram of gasoline before entering the xhaust?
Anyone with knowledge about the above?
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tok-tokkie
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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P1*V1/T1 = P2*V2/T2 but I don't know the T1 & T2
-----------------
I have just picked up on this thread from early June. Edis has now come with some authoritative information. Many thanks.

I would like to add:
1. Basically the FIA has tried to limit power by engine capacity & maximum revs.
2. The amount of power an engine can develop can be limited by restricting the amount of fuel (energy) or the amount of oxidant (air normally but alcohol fuels contain oxidant & NOs is another possibility). The FIA has been trying to limit it by air intake (= capacity * revs).
3. By introducing a fuel limit next year they really have become confused as they now have 2 methods simultaneously limiting the power.
4. When they dramatically limit the fuel then they can dispense with the capacity & rev restraints. The two are not required simultaneously. Here I am only considering the fuel efficiency target.
5. For cost constraints a simpler engine is an advantage.
6. Turbo charging increases the air in the engine. With limited fuel you can now use a smaller engine & lower revs. The amount of air is not the limiting factor; it is the amount of fuel. The aim is to burn all that fuel as efficiently as possible.
7. A throttle plate is an engineering disaster. I was long last at university so can't give you the fluid dynamics or thermodynamics to support that statement. A diesel engine is inherently more fuel efficient simply because it does not use a throttle. It has unrestricted air induction. It controls power by limited direct fuel injection. The droplets of fuel squirt in & combust as soon as they find an oxygen molecule. All the fuel burns and the excess oxygen gets exhausted.
8. Stratified charge in petrol engines with direct injection allows a petrol engine to operate on the same principal as a diesel engine EXCEPT it does not function by compression ignition. Here I am uncertain as I know putting petrol (gasoline) into a diesel engine is disastrous.
Last edited by tok-tokkie on 08 Aug 2010, 10:51, edited 1 time in total.

xpensive
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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Well, the common gas-law is one way to begin of course, but I guess you need to know P1 and P2 as well, besides what addition to the gasvolume-flow will the gasoline itself bring?
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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Edis wrote:To use all the oxygen in 1 kg of air we need 68 grams of gasoline thus the total exhaust mass will be 1068 grams. Now, if we burn the fuel at lambda 0.5 rather than lambda 1, we need to add 136 grams of gasoline instead of 68 grams, giving a total 1136 gram exhaust. If we go lean to lambda 1.5 instead we will still need the 68 grams gasoline to maintain the power level, then we need 1499 grams of air adding to a total exhaust mass of 1567 gram.
xpensive wrote:
xpensive wrote:One kg of air represents a volume of almost one m^3 entering the engine, but how much will the volume have increased by burning 68/136 gram of gasoline before entering the xhaust?
Anyone with knowledge about the above?
I believe you have to construct a thermodynamic balance of the engine and introduce a number of boundary conditions to be able to compute the unknown variables. The working energy taken off the engine, the dissipated heat and the velocity of the exhaust gasses will all factor in the energy balance.

The other way is looking at the chemistry. If you begin with the volume and mass of the uncompressed feed elements and you know the chemical composition of the exhaust gas flow you may be able to compute the uncompressed compound volume of the exhaust gases from their components.
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xpensive
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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Now, there must be a simplified way of estimating said xhaust-flow?

If the intake stroke has a 100% degree filling-rate, the 2.4 engine should consume 360 dm^3 per second at 18k rpm. If the inlet temperature is 20C and outlet 900C, xhaust-flow would be 4 times the inlet, 1170/293 Kelvin, if pressure in and out of the engine is approximated to be the same; Ideal gas law says P*V/T is constant.

4 times 360 is 1440 dm^3 of xhaust-flow per second and if the two pipes have a diameter of 80 mm each, exhaust-speed would reach 144 m/s, or 500 km/h.

The addition of gasoline, 30-60 gram per second when intrapolated from Edis numbers per 1 kg of air, is of course neglected in the above draft.

Does this make sense?
Last edited by xpensive on 08 Aug 2010, 01:27, edited 1 time in total.
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ringo
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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xpensive wrote:
xpensive wrote:Edis wrote;

To use all the oxygen in 1 kg of air we need 68 grams of gasoline thus the total exhaust mass will be 1068 grams. Now, if we burn the fuel at lambda 0.5 rather than lambda 1, we need to add 136 grams of gasoline instead of 68 grams, giving a total 1136 gram exhaust. If we go lean to lambda 1.5 instead we will still need the 68 grams gasoline to maintain the power level, then we need 1499 grams of air adding to a total exhaust mass of 1567 gram.

One kg of air represents a volume of almost one m^3 entering the engine, but how much will the volume have increased by burning 68/136 gram of gasoline before entering the xhaust?
Anyone with knowledge about the above?
Entering the exhaust pipes right from the engine?

The gas is expanding against the back pressure at the end of the pipe.
How much it expands after it leaves the end of the pipe depends on the energy and temp imparted to it after combustion, i don't think someone can calculate that since the system boundary is changing and is not defined.

It is always assumed that introducing a gas into a mixture, the gas will try to occupy the whole volume and be mixed evenly. In the case of gases introduced to the atmosphere, you have to assume the same thing. We don't know how fast it will full the volume of the atmosphere though. :lol:

The real answer is that the volume of the gases is the volume of the atmosphere. :)

Theoretically It will take a certain time, but you can't realistically ask for a volume of gases that have no real boundaries.
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ringo
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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WhiteBlue wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:
xpensive wrote: the volumeflow is directly dependent on the amount of fuel burnt.
I don't think that you can say that. The fuel can always be burned lean or rich in any F1 system that we know. The dials on the steering wheels of current F1 cars have a massive impact on fuel consumption. And the variation of oxygen always drags five times the amount of inert gases through the engine. So the gas flow is never directly proportional to the fuel burnt.
Edis wrote:
ringo wrote:Mass cannot be created nor destroyed, so it's logical a leaner mixture has less mass.
For any given power level, a lean mixture will result in a higher exhaust flow than a rich mixture.
To use all the oxygen in 1 kg of air we need 68 grams of gasoline thus the total exhaust mass will be 1068 grams. Now, if we burn the fuel at lambda 0.5 rather than lambda 1, we need to add 136 grams of gasoline instead of 68 grams, giving a total 1136 gram exhaust. If we go lean to lambda 1.5 instead we will still need the 68 grams gasoline to maintain the power level, then we need 1499 grams of air adding to a total exhaust mass of 1567 gram.
Edis computed the total mass for burning a constant fuel mass at different lambdas. If you reduce the fuel mass by making the mixture lean the air mass will increase much faster than the fuel mass is reduced. Or expressed in throttle position; you have to go much higher throttle positions to get the same power.
No offense but what you are saying makes no sense to me; check the bold and blue, Each sentence contradicts the other.
The debate was; does a leaner mixture have more mass flow than a richer one? The answer is no. Clearly we are dealing with a given amount of air, and varying the fuel flow, that's how engines do it, they vary the fuel injection.
Maintaining power level is not in the question. Why would you go lean if you want to maintain the same power?
There is no way to introduce more air into an engine, above it's peak volumetric efficiency, without force induction, even if the engine was throttless.

I like the no throttle idea, but i think it adds more complexity and weight to the top of the engine, and also gives rise to many loopholes; the cams, timing, or varying the compression ratio of the engine.
Even Jake brake, compression release braking, that we see on diesel trucks can be used as some kind of driver aid.
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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ringo wrote:Does a leaner mixture have more mass flow than a richer one? The answer is no.
If you don't understand Edis figures there is no point to discuss with you. Keep you opinion and those who can understand them will keep theirs.
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riff_raff
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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Edis wrote:Supercritical direct injection which provide almost instant mixing late in the compression phase would be an interresting technology, but again, cost issues. It would require a bespoke injection system.
Edis,

You brought up a very interesting point about direct injection of fuel at supercritical conditions. There is some work being done in this area (see Transonic Combustion). And if you believe the press releases, it does provide some benefits that would help an F1 engine.

Direct injection of fuel at supercritical conditions would, in theory, produce very rapid combustion. Very close to true constant volume conditions. Which should result in better brake thermal efficiency and more power.

But as you noted, metering, condtioning and injecting fuel at supercritical temperature and pressure conditions is not an easy feat. It would require some very complex and expensive injection hardware.

Regards,
riff_raff
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ringo
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WhiteBlue wrote:
ringo wrote:Does a leaner mixture have more mass flow than a richer one? The answer is no.
If you don't understand Edis figures there is no point to discuss with you. Keep you opinion and those who can understand them will keep theirs.
My opinion is that your opinion is harmful to those reading because you present them as fact. Your opinion contradicted the law of conservation of mass.

I understand the figures, they should be simple and straight forward, but they were crafted to give others the go around.
They never had to be written in that manner.

First you both say you are given 1kg of air, that's it no more than 1kg, then you suddenly increase it from out of nowhere to somehow show that a leaner mixture can never have less mass than a richer mixture; all because you know the maths doesn't add up if the air was left at 1kg, then you throw in maintaining power level as an escape clause. :wink:
That's very conniving.

I am not being argumentative, but if I see someone trying to give others the go around, instead of admitting they may have made a slip up, then I'm going to call them out to clarify.
That's what the forum's all about. :mrgreen:
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xpensive
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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@ ringo; I don't know if you understood my question above, I certainly didn't understand your response, it was about how much a given amount of air entering the engine xpands before leaving the xhausts, where I tried a guesstimation myself:
xpensive wrote:Now, there must be a simplified way of estimating said xhaust-flow?

If the intake stroke has a 100% degree filling-rate, the 2.4 engine should consume 360 dm^3 per second at 18k rpm. If the inlet temperature is 20C and outlet 900C, xhaust-flow would be 4 times the inlet, 1170/293 Kelvin, if pressure in and out of the engine is approximated to be the same; Ideal gas law says P*V/T is constant.

4 times 360 is 1440 dm^3 of xhaust-flow per second and if the two pipes have a diameter of 80 mm each, exhaust-speed would reach 144 m/s, or 500 km/h.

The addition of gasoline, 30-60 gram per second when intrapolated from Edis numbers per 1 kg of air, is of course neglected in the above draft.
Comments welcome, but I agree with you that it's difficult to see how a leaner mix would result in a higher massflow?
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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This is a bit difficult to understand and so I will go through Edis figures again with more sources and examples.
Edis wrote:To use all the oxygen in 1 kg of air we need 68 grams of gasoline thus the total exhaust mass will be 1068 grams. Now, if we burn the fuel at lambda 0.5 rather than lambda 1, we need to add 136 grams of gasoline instead of 68 grams, giving a total 1136 gram exhaust. If we go lean to lambda 1.5 instead we will still need the 68 grams gasoline to maintain the power level, then we need 1499 grams of air adding to a total exhaust mass of 1567 gram.
First he refers to the concept of the air to fuel ratio. Wikipedia says the stoichiometric AFR for gasoline is 14.7. The stoichiometric AFR in engine technology is also called lambda. Lambda=1 means that we use exactly the amount of air to burn all gasoline completely without having any oxygen left.

If we devide 1000g air by the AFR of 14.7 we get 68 g of gasoline for a stoichiometric combustion reaction, which means lambda is 1. The stoichiometric reaction takes the oxygen in 1000 g of air - which is approximately 190 g - to burn 68 g of gasoline completely with no gasoline left and no oxygen left.

Next Edis looks at a rich mixture and a lean mixture. He suggests to use a lambda of 0.5 and 1.5 for this. If we apply the lambda values to the AFR we get the following table.

lambda=0.5 AFR= 7.35 (rich)
lambda=1.0 AFR=14.70 (stoichiometric)
lambda=1.5 AFR=22.05 (lean)

To avoid confusion we will keep the fuel mass constant at 68g. If we do that we get:

68 g fuel x 7.35(lambda=0.5)= 500 g air -> 568 g total rich reaction mass
68 g fuel x 14.70(lambda=1.0)=1000 g air -> 1068 g total stoich reaction mass
68 g fuel x 22.05(lambda=1.5)=1500 g air -> 1568 g total lean reaction mass

We can look at it the other way round and compute the fuel needed for 1 kg of air.

1000 g air : 7.35(lambda=0.5)= 136g fuel -> 1136 g total rich reaction mass
1000 g air : 14.70(lambda=1.0)= 68 g fuel -> 1068 g total stoich reaction mass
1000 g air : 22.05(lambda=1.5)= 45 g fuel -> 1045 g total lean reaction mass

When we look at both tables it gets clear why there is confusion sometimes. If we fix the air in our computations we get a decreasing reaction mass when we go from rich to lean combustion. If we fix the fuel we get a massively rising combustion mass when we go from rich to lean combustion.

Xpensive formulated the claim that the exhaust gas is going through an engine at a fixed ratio to the burned fuel. I said that this can't be true because the mixture can be rich or lean. Edis showed us with his figures that indeed a fixed amount of fuel (68g) will produce a highly variable exhaust gas flow depending of the richness or leanness of the mix. So with regard to xpensive's claim it was clearly shown that it is not true. I think we can all agree on that.

Further I tried to explain why this result looks so unexpected. When you look at table I you see that the air demand is highly variable for the same amount of fuel to burn. So obviously in the real world to achieve those different combustion states with the same amount of fuel you not only have to change the mixture, you also have to change the throttle position to get that amount of air into the engine.

Further I have tried to explain that we can compare the amount of fuel burned with the power of the engine. That is not exactly true because the efficiency will change with the different lambdas but we can use it to make things simpler. If we start with the stoichiometric reaction we find that by going lean on the engine we will need a much wider throttle position because we need 50% more air. If we go to a rich mixture we can significantly go off throttle to achieve the same power because we need 50% less air. As I have already explained the power will not be constant with the same amount of fuel but it explains why we get this unexpected throttle setting when we change the mixture. To keep the power with a rich mixture we need less throttle and to keep it with leaner mixture we need more throttle.

I hope this makes things a bit clearer. I have used Edi's lambda values here because I did not want to confuse things more. I want to add the caveat that lambda values like 1.5 are unrealistic in current F1 engines. I'm not aware where the real values are but I think that 0.7-0.95 should be more realistic. Nevertheless if you do the same computations in that range you would see similar effects for going leaner or richer from a middle value of 0.825.
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xpensive
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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Well obviously, if you by a leaner mix mean that you keep the amount of fuel injected constant, but somehow increase the amount of air, the total massflow will be higher. But I'm not sure this is how an engine works, the other way around seems somewhat more practical, if you for whatever reason want to play with this.

When on the subject of Wiki;
Lean mixtures produce hotter combustion gases than a stoichiometric mixture, so much so that pistons can melt as a result. Rich mixtures produces cooler combustion gases than a stoichiometric mixture, primarily due to the excessive amount of carbon which oxidises to form carbon monoxide, rather than carbon dioxide. The chemical reaction oxidizing carbon to form carbon monoxide releases significantly less heat than the similar reaction to form carbon dioxide.(Carbon monoxide retains significant potential chemical energy. It is itself a fuel whereas carbon dioxide is not.) Lean mixtures, when consumed in an internal combustion engine, produce less power than the stoichiometric mixture. Similarly, rich mixtures return poorer fuel efficiency than the stoichiometric mixture. (The mixture for the best fuel efficiency is slightly different from the stoichiometric mixture.)
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