Alonso on Vettel vs Hamilton

[bhall]

The reason [...]

First off: I no longer feel guilty about writing a book. It probably "just happened" to you in much the same way they seem to just happen to me.

Rather than do a point-by-point thing - and you raised many good ones - I'm only going to address the two that stuck out most for me. There's no need for this to be one of "those," yanno?

I don't think McLaren took any risk at all by bringing in Hamilton in 2007. They had Alonso, and what better situation exists for a team employing a rookie driver than to have as his teammate someone who's guaranteed to score regularly and at a very high level?

I completely agree with you that the Pirellis don't suit his style at all. But, I think that's more of a symptom than it is a problem in and of itself.

He nearly won it all in 2007 in a situation that, no matter how you cut it, wasn't expected to turn out like it did. He then won it all the next year. So, I feel like that's the baseline performance he expects to have year in and year out. While that's admirable to a degree, I suppose, it's also destructive, because it leads him to push too hard. For that reason, he's left a lot of points on the track, and it all started in 2009 when, for the first time, he couldn't always force the car to submit to his will.

I sincerely believe that a season spent further down the grid could have prevented this. Such a scenario would have made it easier for him to understand that pushing too hard is just as bad, if not worse, than not pushing hard enough. I mean, how can one not be humbled when even absolute perfection isn't nearly enough to keep other cars from flying by?

I'm not going to even pretend to be a Hamilton fan, because I'm not. Yet, I still think it would be a damn shame if he fell victim to his own hype. That's too much talent to waste, and I really think that might be happening.

He's lost the edge at McLaren. Unless he makes a fundamental and relatively profound change in his driving, I don't think he can get it back.

(Selfishly: racing is just more fun with a villain, and Hamilton is a villain for us tifosi. If he fades away, crushing him won't be nearly as satisfying.)

[myurr]

My own view is that the tyres aren't helping him. They're flattering Vettel and Button to a degree by compromising the attacking drivers style and stopping them from cranking out the lap times. Race pace is four or five seconds off qualifying even in the final stint as drivers have to tip toe around conserving their tyres. Compare that to the Bridgestone tyres where fastest laps in the race were only a few tenths to a second off qualifying pace.

It doesn't really matter now if he would beat Jenson or Sebastian on Bridgestones though, does it? Tyres are but tools. It is part and parcel of any job description to maximise his or her tools. Bridgestone is (for the foreseeable future) gone from F1, and the Pirelli jelly beans are in, and if he wants to win races and titles; he has to adapt.

Completely agree, everything is just a tool for the driver to work into a masterpiece. That doesn't mean that some tools suit different drivers and styles more than others, and it takes quite a long time to adapt.

What I think we're seeing is that drivers like Alonso and Hamilton can adapt to pretty much anything and be fast. We have seen Hamilton win with the Pirellis, etc. But because they are having to adapt whilst other drivers are being elevated by natural affinity you see a levelling of the playing field.

Webber's driving style didn't benefit as much from the EBD as Vettel's, so last year we saw SV dominate whilst Webber was lucky to finish on the podium at many races. Again the tyres didn't suit his style as much either.

This year we have, so far at least and we're only two races in, seen a bit of a switch where Vettel no longer enjoys a natural advantage and has not been dominating or even beating his team mate.

Does this mean Vettel is suffering a massive slump in form and is now a hopeless driver doomed to failure?

I was just trying to express my view that last year Vettel and Button were punching above their weight because the cars and tyres naturally suited them whilst Hamilton and Webber were having to adapt. I'd argue that Hamilton adapted much better than Webber but was distracted by the off track shenanigans, and that Button and Vettel struggle (relatively) when the car doesn't suit them.

[myurr]

@bhallg2k - it happens

Hamilton's capability in an F1 car was an unknown and it was a big risk bringing him straight in to a top team like that. McLaren care about the constructors championship very much, and the pre-season chatter was that they were risking points in the constructors by chancing Hamilton.

Take this article for example where Hamilton himself says it is a big risk: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 345244.stm

Or this forum thread showing how fans viewed it at the time: http://formula-1.updatesport.com/commun ... 8bc126e7f0

With hindsight it's easy to say McLaren didn't take a risk, but at the time it was considered a very risky move for both McLaren and Hamilton (ruining his mental state and / or standing by being crushed by Alonso).

The rest of your post is hard to objectively argue against as it's opinion vs opinion. My own view is that his problems are deeper than just needing a year to run around in a slow car to gain an appreciation of what it's like.

Would you say that a year and a bit in a car that doesn't suit him, with tyres that stop him attacking, is helping Kobayashi's standing? He was the "new best thing evarrr" with his attacking style and combative ballsy driving. But he isn't able to do that at the moment due to the tyres and car and is suddenly looking very ordinary next to Perez, another driver benefiting massively from tyres that suit his style.

[Nando]

In equal machinery, where McLaren had no involvement (i.e. every series that Hamilton drove in prior to F1) he beat everyone and won everything. So, how does your argument stand about him being spoon-fed, when armed with this undeniable evidence?

1. There is no doubt that Ron Dennis helped him through out his career and he was given a seat on a top team in F1 from day 1.
2. He was given unlimited pre-season testing before his first F1 race.
3. Almost everyone who joined F1 are champs at the lower formulae but starts off their F1 career on a weak team.
4. Alonso (reluctantly) given Hamilton his telemetry. This undoubtedly aided Hamilton. Clearly Mclaren's bias management was enough to force Alonso exit to a weak team - Renault, despite his huge hunger to win on a strong Mclaren team.

Clearly Hamilton had it easy, thus spoon-fed.
I think Hamilton's honeymoon period has finished, thus explains his ever poorer results.

And the story is the same with Vettel..

Vettel had to prove himself, he did. RBR took him under his wing.

They said keep winning and you´ll enter F1 som day.
So he did and because he actually failed to set an impact like Hamilton, he got put in by BMW as a sideshow Bob for Kubica at Indy i believe.

Then as he impressed everyone he slowly found his way into the top team RBR.


Problem is that nobody was really sure because he for instance got beaten by Di Resta in F3.
Imagine seeing while in the shoes of Dietrich or similar..

*Maybe next year...* what probably his thoughts after that.


IF we look at Hamilton´s whole career, he is one of very few people that have dominated and won every championship he´s ever entered. (i think there might be a karting championship or similar that he haven´t won)

There was really no question about what Hamilton can do, and there was no question that he was a special driver.

So yes he´s been helped by Mclaren as Vettel got helped by RBR/Mercedes/BMW
But race seast is fully justified.

[Nando]

"4. Alonso (reluctantly) given Hamilton his telemetry."

This is normal. If you are slower then your teammate then obviously you will get telemetry from the team stating where you are losing your speed.

I doubt he was reluctant for that... media has blown everything out of proportion.

[jamsbong]

@Nando
I never followed Hamilton, Vettel or other drivers on the lower formulae because I don't have access to such media.
Here is what I don't get, if Hamilton is super good then how is it that he manage to loose out to Jenson Button?

Lewis may have an impressive natural talent but so does all top champs (present or past). I have no doubt Vettel, Alonso, Raikkonen, Schumacher all have great gifts. But I won't put any of them on top of others because it is bias and unquantitative.

[Nando]

@Nando
I never followed Hamilton, Vettel or other drivers on the lower formulae because I don't have access to such media.
Here is what I don't get, if Hamilton is super good then how is it that he manage to loose out to Jenson Button?

Lewis may have an impressive natural talent but so does all top champs (present or past). I have no doubt Vettel, Alonso, Raikkonen, Schumacher all have great gifts. But I won't put any of them on top of others because it is bias and unquantitative.

You should watch some of the seasons and see for yourself.
Check out Hamilton from when he raced in karts to F3 to GP2.
Should be able to find quite a lot on youtube,

He lost out to Button once. That was his worst year in all of his career.
Also the first time he been beaten by his teammate.

So i ask you, out of all his seasons, why would you put any weight in his absolute worst one?

That´s your choice. I like to rank them from what i´ve seen as many people do.

I hold Alonso highest by the way.

[raymondu999]

Check out Hamilton from when he raced in karts to F3 to GP2.

and who can forget this?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk5BizSLuf0[/youtube]

He lost out to Button once. That was his worst year in all of his career.
Also the first time he been beaten by his teammate.

So i ask you, out of all his seasons, why would you put any weight in his absolute worst one?

to be fair it shouldn't be seen as 1 out of 5, but 1 out of 2 since he's only been with Button as long.

[jamsbong]

I like to rank them from what i´ve seen as many people do.

Oh well, if you like to rank them, then clearly Vettel is way above Hamilton in regards to F1 success. Alonso, Schumacher is also way better. Kimi is also better in terms of lap times.

Hamilton is famed for his overtakings but based on last year's results, he was terrible in overtakings. The number crashes with Massa shows he can't learn from past experience. Plus, he couldn't even overtake Schumacher driving a slow Merc. I mean, the real overtake happened when Button overtook Schumacher. Hamilton simply couldn't do what Button did.

In the end, Jenson Button, manage to defeat Hamilton on equal machinary. Goes back to my original point, Alonso's comment is wrong.

[Lycoming]

2011 was an off year. An athlete's performance does not always correlate with what they're capable of.

That said, you could argue that DRS/KERS/Pirellis de-emphasized the ability to overtake, and in a way robbed him of his advantage. Where in the past you needed somebody with a little bit extra to make a crucial move at the right, now you just wait for the DRS zone and cruise on by. The same applies to Kobayashi; 2011 did not see many dramatic moves from him.

Additionally, Massa is the kind of driver that doesn't really give you space, and Schumacher's Merc had better straight line speed with DRS closed than Hamilton did with DRS open. Also, he was weaving all over the place. At monza of all places, straight line speed is kinda important. Although button made a hell of a move to get past him at Ascari...

[jamsbong]

Although button made a hell of a move to get past him at Ascari...

Button made the overtake look easy and he is not even famed for overtakings (eventhough he was truly brilliant in Canada 2011). Button is most famous for saving tires.. hahah... Michelin should use Button in their ads.

[Robbobnob]

people will always have varying opinions.

IMO i place Alonso Vettel and Hamilton on the same step. Each of them are brilliant for their varying skill sets.

Hamilton for his pure speed. he really drives the car; to and beyond its capability. Unfortunately with the current no refuelling regulations we are robbed of how quick he can be during the race. However can get distracted.

Alonso is the master of car control, if given the car he'd easily put it on pole all year straight. He may not have the pure raw speed as Hamilton, but what he lacks there he gains in knowing how to race, rarely making a mistake you know the car is going as fast as possible for the given situation.

Vettel is a quick driver with the great ability to make the car go fast. Doesnt always get it right, but is very capable of adapting within the car. surrounded by a brilliant team for the last 3 years has learnt a lot about driving. He starts this year with a very wise head it seems he learns from every situation. Seems like he has his way with lady luck most of the time. this year it will be interesting to see if he can prove he is the complete package.

[bhall]

[Driver A] for his pure speed. he really drives the car; to and beyond its capability.

[...]

[Driver B] may not have the pure raw speed as [Driver A], but what he lacks there he gains in knowing how to race, rarely making a mistake you know the car is going as fast as possible for the given situation.

[...]

I have an inherently smartass tone that's often perceived as condescending, because, well, it often is. I say that now, because I'm going to try my best to temper that tone so any focus can fall on the substance of what I'm about to say rather than the style with which I'm likely to say it. And also because I really don't want to offend anyone or necessarily put anyone on the defensive. Honest.

No driver in the history of motor racing has ever successfully driven his/her car beyond its capability. Ever. In fact, many have died trying.

Simply put: a car driven beyond its capability is wrecked or otherwise hindered by the attempt. Every time. Without exception.

That's the very essence of capability. If a car can do it, it's capable. It might not always be easy to get there, but if it can do it, it's capable. If not...

On the flip-side of that coin, a driver driving as fast as possible for any given situation is driving his car as successfully as it can be driven. He/she cannot possibly improve without exceeding the capability of the equipment.

Simply put: it does not get better than that. At all.

I see these things said about drivers all the time, and it points to a fundamental and terminal flaw in the way in which drivers are viewed. Somehow, a driver who has considerable success, but also regularly exceeds the limits of his equipment, is somehow and inexplicably viewed as "faster" than a driver who has the same success, but rarely exceeds those same limits. How is this right?

I've deleted all names, because, frankly, I don't care who we're talking about or about who says it. Of course, you can figure it out, but it's immaterial nonetheless. It's the methodology that's frustrating. It happens over and over and over again, even amongst professionals who should know better.

[sweetebru]

Hello guys im new in this website actually thats my first day on this website soo i just want to say hello

[Nando]

Oh well, if you like to rank them, then clearly Vettel is way above Hamilton in regards to F1 success.

F1 sucess means crap when you are talking driver potential.
Formula 1 is too driven on having the need for a car capable of taking the title.
If it´s not capable then you will not see the driver taking a title.

Alonso, Schumacher is also way better. Kimi is also better in terms of lap times.

Please explain how you got to this conclusion? Kimi has more fastest laps?
If you are truly honest about this post then i don´t know really what to say..

Hamilton is famed for his overtakings

Yes and he´s the best that there´s ever been in Formula 1. (from an Alonso fan)
He is the greatest when it comes to overatakes.

but based on last year's results,

No no no, based on "his worst year EVER in racing" is what you should say.

he was terrible in overtakings. The number crashes with Massa shows he can't learn from past experience. Plus, he couldn't even overtake Schumacher driving a slow Merc. I mean, the real overtake happened when Button overtook Schumacher. Hamilton simply couldn't do what Button did.

In the end, Jenson Button, manage to defeat Hamilton on equal machinary. Goes back to my original point, Alonso's comment is wrong.

1. Yes overtakes wasn´t up to par.. 09-10 i believe he had the most, and i´m sure he is one of the all-time leaders for overtakes.

2. Could not overtake Schumi.... now this shows you know nothing about Formula 1. the racing aspect of it atleast. You should refrain from ever speaking those words again.

Button shined when he arguably had his best ever year.
Hamilton endured his worst ever year.

= When Hamilton does really bad, Button shines.