Grosjean banned. Reasoning?

[bhall]

[...]

In hindsight sure, braking would have saved him getting involved in a pile up, and maybe allowed him to complete the race... But he wasn't driving with hindsight, he was driving with foresight, and was in a situation that wouldn't warrant braking to any sane driver.

A failure to adapt to change is, well, a failure. Put another way, an unyielding mindset is not always an asset.

I'm not saying it's Hamilton's fault. But, he didn't help his cause.

[Stradivarius]

First of all, I would say that I totally agree with the ones saying that penalties should be handed out based on the actions of the driver and not based on the consequences of a given action. I find it alarming that the stewards are refering to the championship standings of the victims when handing out this penalty. Why does it matter to Grosjean's penalty how Alonso and the other drivers have performed in previous races? Had this exact episode taken place last year instead, when Vettel had a massive lead and Alonso was not a championship contender, would Grosjean have gotten away without a race ban? I don't think intention is anything to go after when it comes to handing out punishments. First of all, it is impossible to determine intention, unless the accused confesses. Secondly, intention doesn't really matter anyway. As long as it is clear what is legal and what is not, drivers can be penalized for illegal conduct without any speculation of why he did it and what he was thinking. That would be sufficient. Situations where one would be eligible to assume the driver intended to crash, are always quite clear breaches of the regulations anyway.

Regarding Grosjean/Hamilton: In racing, you can't expect other drivers to hit the brakes to avoid a collision when you're crossing over to the oposite side of the circuit. Yes, Hamilton could have slowed down and most likely avoided contact with Grosjean, but that is not something anyone could expect from him. Hamilton could, however, expect that Grosjean would leave him enough room on the track. At the moment it is clear that Grosjean is not giving Hamilton enough room, it is too late for Hamilton to do anything.

Had Hamilton slowed down, when Grosjean was on his way over to the right, in time to avoid contact, he would not only be criticised for giving up prematurely (it would have had nothing to with racing if drivers would just yield each time they saw a car approaching). It would also potentially cause a different dangerous situation. The drivers who came behind would never expect him to slow down at the middle of the straight and if Hamilton hadn't been hit from behind, the cars behind making avoiding manoeuvres could easily hit each other. At the start of a race it is not only necessary to look out for other cars next to you and in front of you. It is also necessary that drivers act in a predictable way, so that the cars behind you don't run into you from behind. Hamilton did drive in a predictable way and gave Grosjean as much space as he could by moving as far over to the right as possible. Grosjean is the only one to blame in this situation, and as far as I know he has even accepted the blame.

For the record: I don't think Hamilton himself is much better than either Grosjean or Maldonado when it comes to causing collisions. Last year I think he drove into Massa 5 times, and considering everything that Hamilton has been caught doing in f1 I would say he has been lucky to avoid race bans. Probably even more lucky than Maldonado.

[morefirejules08]

is there any in car footage from Grojean's start?

[strad]

He could see Grosjean, Grosjean could not see him...Hmmmm Let's see,,,who should have been smart enough to avoid a car crossing the track at him? Hmmm avoid the pile up and continue or stay on the gas and pile in?

There is one big flaw in your explaination: Lewis never was obliged to brake. Lewis clearly held his line and didn't made any sudden maneuvres. He also gave Grosjean more then enough space. Nothing in this whole story tells lewis should have braked.

No,,you are right he was not obliged to brake, but then he wasn't obliged to needlessly add to the mayhem and he was obliged to do his best to finish and even win which requires being smart enough to know when to back off.
I don't know why you have your dander up,,,You wanna think Louis is the second coming I don't care, but don't expect the entire F1 community to fall in line behind you.
I personally don't put a single one of them on a pedestal as you apparently do. Fine

[jdlive]

I don't know what is officially considered a pass but in that helicopter video:

1) Grosjean is clearly more past Hamilton than vice versa
2) Grosjean had the better line for La Source
3) Hamilton had everything in his view while Grosjean had not
4) Common sense would dictate Hamilton lifting instead of taking everyone, including himself, out. He seems to be unable to come to terms with the fact that losing 1 place temporarily is less bad than not finishing races.

It's basically entirely Hamilton's fault as is usually the case with this not too clever driver. (to put it lightly still)

It would perhaps be more appropriate if the stewards conducted an investigation into Hamilton's intelligence instead of into Grosjean's competence.

[zonk]

That crash is reminiscent of Vettel and Webber in Turkey - Vettel moved into Webber, whilst Webber held position.

More like BUT on HAM in Canada '11 or MSH on BAR in monza

[morefirejules08]

I don't know what is officially considered a pass but in that helicopter video:

1) Grosjean is clearly more past Hamilton than vice versa
2) Grosjean had the better line for La Source
3) Hamilton had everything in his view while Grosjean had not
4) Common sense would dictate Hamilton lifting instead of taking everyone, including himself, out. He seems to be unable to come to terms with the fact that losing 1 place temporarily is less bad than not finishing races.

It's basically entirely Hamilton's fault as is usually the case with this not too clever driver. (to put it lightly still)

It would perhaps be more appropriate if the stewards conducted an investigation into Hamilton's intelligence instead of into Grosjean's competence.

and comedy post of the thread goes too........

[jdlive]

And why may that be so? Got even 1 good reason?

[Richard]

Looking at that overhead shot it is clear that Grosjean had loads of room in front and to his left. He swung across for the inside line and clipped Hamilton.

It’s uncannily similar to the Hamilton-Kobayahsi crash last year. In that case people said Kobayahsi should have braked, but in the end Hamilton admitted he’d messed up and hadn’t realised how close the other driver was. This was a very similar scenario, but the consequences were a lot worse because it took place on the start grid.

As for the Schumi swerve, that only works where one diver intimidates the other, it’s a game of chicken. The lead driver needs to squeeze out the track but still allow enough space to not hit the second car, and the driver in the second car needs to feel intimidated. Grosjean managed the first bit (squeeze) but not the second (not hit Hamilton) and completely underestimated the third (that Hamilton would easily yield). Of course that assumes Grosjean was attempting to squeeze Hamilton. I reality I think it was incompetence, he didn’t know Hamilton was there.

That’s the whole thing about an F1 start, divers hold their ground. It is interesting that there is a debate in another thread saying drivers aren’t brave enough, yet when a driver is brave and holds his ground he is criticised for not yielding. We can’t have it both ways. “After you Mr Hamilton” ... “No after you Mr Grosjean”... “I say Mr Alsono, would you mind awfully if I ask you to slow down a bit so I can have a bit more space to get around this corner”.

[montes]

First, I think that the ban is well diserved. Grosjean is simply too reckless in the first laps, the stats says it all, somebody needed to give him some time to reflect and maybe look at the starts from the sidelines, learn something

Second, I completely agree with everybody that Malfunctionado (copyright Hail22 via ballg2k) is way past such a penalty too. I certainly hope that next time he does causes a crash he will get one of these too.

Third, in my opinion, looking at the video, Grosjean knew very well where Lewis was. Because otherwise why does his car stops moving right within a few centimeters of Lewis's front wheel? Coincidence? I am not a big believer in these things Also it seems to me that Grosjean moved so fast to the right, that Hamilton could have braked only exactly when he saw Grosjean moving towards him, otherwise it would have been too late. And if all drivers would brake when they see a car moving towards them... well... I guess we wouldn't like that kind of racing would we? And then, when Grosjean interlocked the front wheel of Hamilton is almost a crash waiting to happen (unless by some magic they make it into the corner with their wheels perfectly interlocked ).

[morefirejules08]

And why may that be so? Got even 1 good reason ?

Where would you like me to start?

1) If Grosjean was past then he wouldn't have run into the side of Hamiltons car would he?

2) Grosjean didn't have a line at all, he was drifting accross the whole width of the track from left to right for no other reason than to maybe cut Hamilton off. I mean there were no other cars around him to force him into the move.

3) Hamilton did not have everything in his view due to the other car coming from behind. Grosjean should have been aware of Hamiltons position considering Hamilton was in front at the start and was driving in a straight line which his on board footage proved.

4) Common sense would dictate that Grosjean had no reason to move the whole width of the track to try and squeeze another car out.

So there are 4 good reasons for you. Only you and one other poster seem to have a problem with this being Grosjeans fault and his fault alone!

Last but not least I find that people that need to resort to insults while posting are generally trolling for attention so your original post can be pretty much disregarded

[jdlive]

And why may that be so? Got even 1 good reason?

Where would you like me to start?

1) If Grosjean was past then he wouldn't have run into the side of Hamiltons car would he?

2) Grosjean didn't have a line at all, he was drifting accross the whole width of the track from left to right for no other reason than to maybe cut Hamilton off. I mean there were no other cars around him to force him into the move.

3) Hamilton did not have everything in his view due to the other car coming from behind. Grosjean should have been aware of Hamiltons position considering Hamilton was in front at the start and was driving in a straight line which his on board footage proved.

4) Common sense would dictate that Grosjean had no reason to move the whole width of the track to try and squeeze another car out.

So there are 4 good reasons for you. Only you and one other poster seem to have a problem with this being Grosjeans fault and his fault alone!

Last but not least I find that people that need to resort to insults while posting are generally trolling for attention so your original post can be pretty much disregarded

1) Again, I don't know what is officially considered a pass, but he was more past Hamilton than vice versa

2) Since when is going from left to right on a track not allowed?

3) He clearly did

4) Trying to win a place isn't a reason? He passed Hamilton and Hamilton (as usual) refused to accept it and kept on the throttle. This is hardly the first time we see this happening with Hamilton.

[beelsebob]

And why may that be so? Got even 1 good reason?

Where would you like me to start?

1) If Grosjean was past then he wouldn't have run into the side of Hamiltons car would he?

2) Grosjean didn't have a line at all, he was drifting accross the whole width of the track from left to right for no other reason than to maybe cut Hamilton off. I mean there were no other cars around him to force him into the move.

3) Hamilton did not have everything in his view due to the other car coming from behind. Grosjean should have been aware of Hamiltons position considering Hamilton was in front at the start and was driving in a straight line which his on board footage proved.

4) Common sense would dictate that Grosjean had no reason to move the whole width of the track to try and squeeze another car out.

So there are 4 good reasons for you. Only you and one other poster seem to have a problem with this being Grosjeans fault and his fault alone!

Last but not least I find that people that need to resort to insults while posting are generally trolling for attention so your original post can be pretty much disregarded

1) Again, I don't know what is officially considered a pass, but he was more past Hamilton than vice versa

There is nothing in the rules about being "passed", what's in the rules is that you may not force another car beyond the limits of the track... ever.

2) Since when is going from left to right on a track not allowed?

Since it's in the rules that you're not allowed to force another car off the track.

4) Trying to win a place isn't a reason? He passed Hamilton

No, he got half past hamilton.

and Hamilton (as usual) refused to accept it and kept on the throttle. This is hardly the first time we see this happening with Hamilton.

Show me another start where a driver on the inside backed out of the throttle at the run to the first corner because another driver got half along side him. I can show you plenty where they didn't This isn't something special to hamilton, it's just how someone on the inside into the first corner would always take it.

[ESPImperium]

Its all gone custard for Monza. D'Ambrosio confirmed!

http://www.f1technical.net/news/17723

[morefirejules08]

and Hamilton (as usual) refused to accept it and kept on the throttle. This is hardly the first time we see this happening with Hamilton.
Show me another start where a driver on the inside backed out of the throttle at the run to the first corner because another driver got half along side him. I can show you plenty where they didn't This isn't something special to hamilton, it's just how someone on the inside into the first corner would always take it.

I wouldn't bother arguing to be honest! He is trolling for attention and sadly we are giving it to him