Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -kuehlung/
It is also interesting that Red Bull complained at the Austrian GP last year that McLaren had driven with temperature sensors on the brake drums. This is only allowed in free practice. According to Red Bull, McLaren should have done it at least once during the rest of the weekend. If this is true, then it could be interpreted to mean that the engineers wanted to find out more about the temperatures inside the fairing during a race.

It is also noticeable that McLaren often drives aggressive long runs in the third free practice session and the competition is worlds behind. It may be possible to find out under extreme conditions whether everything works as desired.

It's obviously not a piece of cake to make this process work. There is a lot of development and testing work involved. It looks like McLaren has already tried a precursor to the system after the 2024 summer break. From the GP Holland onwards, Lando Norris and Oscar Piastri excelled, especially in the second half of the races. The competition was already wondering how the two kept their tires in such good shape.

Even if the opponents already know exactly what McLaren is doing, it is not so easy to copy the trick. Red Bull may already have a theory that aims in this direction. Recently, Max Verstappen has complained more and more often about mysterious brake problems. When asked whether this was related to the tyre cooling, team boss Christian Horner gave only monosyllabic answers.
The miraculous heat storage system
Inside the drum-shaped brake covers, there is usually a second sleeve on which fins are attached, which influence the flow of the air. A channel runs between the two walls, in which the temperature of the outer shell radiates onto the rim is decided. This is the case with all cars.

One could now imagine that McLaren shields this channel towards the inner fairing with a very special material. A so-called phase change material, which is also used as a heat storage device in batteries, for example. The same requirements apply there as for the tires. The temperature should rise quickly, but not overshoot a specific target.

In the case of the tires, it would work like this: The dissipating brake heat heats up the tire. According to this theory, McLaren would stop this process by having the insulating material change its physical state. For example, from solid to liquid. In this transition, the temperature remains the same despite further heat supply from the outside.

The temperature in the outer drum is the trigger for the phase change. The material used depends on the temperature at which the stop sign must be placed. The amount of phase change material used determines how long the heat is kept stable at the desired level. A clever air duct system allows the cooling direction to be reversed. Then the brakes are cooled to a point where the material has solidified again.
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AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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AR3-GP wrote:
11 May 2025, 17:14
Image

What is it?
There is not much room to store anything under the brake tins. I think that if there is usage of a phase changing material, then we might be looking at its construction. Where would you put the material? Around the brake disc. That is the most efficient way to absorb heat from the brake disc.
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AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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A high resolution picture of Mclaren's brake disc shield. The white stuff, what is it? It has the appearance of a fabric.

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Watto
Watto
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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AR3-GP wrote:
11 May 2025, 17:20
https://i.postimg.cc/L6FtZ1HF/image.png

Isolation of the brake disc heat seems important.
You've touched on this a little. But if there is a phase change material that is isolating the brakes heat would this in turn mean you need more cooling potentially on the inside of where ever you have the PCM? As I understand it as a well arm chair expert is that would trap more heat that could naturally radiate through the rest of the rest of the system, into the wheels and so on, if I am right could this be the cause of the extra drag the McLarens seem to have you've mentioned?

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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Watto wrote:
12 May 2025, 02:36
AR3-GP wrote:
11 May 2025, 17:20
https://i.postimg.cc/L6FtZ1HF/image.png

Isolation of the brake disc heat seems important.
You've touched on this a little. But if there is a phase change material that is isolating the brakes heat would this in turn mean you need more cooling potentially on the inside of where ever you have the PCM? As I understand it as a well arm chair expert is that would trap more heat that could naturally radiate through the rest of the rest of the system, into the wheels and so on, if I am right could this be the cause of the extra drag the McLarens seem to have you've mentioned?
I'm not sure so anymore. :lol: It could contribute some or the ducts could be no different in terms of losses to any other team. Difficult to say without measurements.
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Alexf1
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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Remember the Saudi GP of 1 or 2 years ago where the McLaren couldn't overtake even while being very close on corner exit and having DRS? They've already been having drag issues for a long time.

dialtone
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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AR3-GP wrote:A high resolution picture of Mclaren's brake disc shield. The white stuff, what is it? It has the appearance of a fabric.

Image
Maybe I’m wrong but that looks just like compacted fiberglass wool to me which is an insulator. So if they shield the disk with that, they need a different way to cool and not glaze the carbon disk.

Fiberglass melts between 1000-1400C while breaks should at most get to around 900-1000, so it would work as a shield.

krisfx
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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Andi76 wrote:
09 May 2025, 21:42
krisfx wrote:
09 May 2025, 20:02
Hoffman900 wrote:
08 May 2025, 15:13


I have a running joke with friends that Newey gets credit for inventing everything :lol:
He really does!
Actually Newey did not even invent the Red Bulls Blown-Diffuser. It was basically a copy of Ferraris intended diffuser for 1998. Unfortunately Carbon and heat-protecting was not at the level at that time to make it work, so Rory Byrne came up with the Periscope-Exhaust, but the famous first Blown-Diffuser Newey used at Red Bull was actually an almost 1-1 copy of this system.
You just said the same as I did, but with extra steps.

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ringo
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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One thing about PCM, doesn't the tech regulations forbid cooling by latent heat?
I believe only driver cooling has the exception on extremely hot circuits.
So PCM is already a dead theory. It is not permited. See article 5.12.
For Sure!!

AR3-GP
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/clue ... ke-design/

Good article from the race. They don't think there's any use of exotic materials. They just think Mclaren has a better routing of the airflow to expunge the hot air from the brakes without unneccesarily heating the wheel rim. I don't think the theory is complete though. It doesn't explain their fast warmup which is something that the RB19 and SF24 lacked.

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Watto
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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vorticism
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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The latent heat rule is only forbidden in the engine/power unit section, so other parts could make use of the effect, although most other parts don't requiew cooling. It's given an allowance in the driver cooling section. That said, the brakes can't be liquid cooled, which would limit what phase changing materials you could use there.
5.25.2 Cooling systems: The cooling systems of the power unit, including that of the air destined for
combustion, must not intentionally make use of the latent heat of vaporisation of any fluid
with the exception of fuel for the normal purpose of combustion in the engine as described in
Article 5.11.3.
14.6.1 The driver cooling system is defined as a system, the sole purpose which, is to provide
additional cooling for the driver.
The driver cooling system may make use of the latent heat of vaporisation, or of sublimation,
of a substance.
11.5 Liquid cooling
Liquid cooling of the brakes is forbidden.
As for the cake tins, note the outboard edge (by the spindle) must be sealed/gasketed per the regs, while the inboard edge (by the inboard wheel lip) can be sealed to the wheel or not, it's up to the team. The gap between the cake tin and the wheel barrel looks about 5 mm wide, maybe even narrower. A very thin layer of air then sits between these two parts. Recall Merc used to run knurled/ribbed wheel barrels in exactly that same area a few years ago. It looks like a polymer gasket is used, across teams, on the cake tin photos I've seen, to bridge the wheel to the tin. Either way, the choice will determine whether or not the thin sleeve of air between the cake tin & the wheel is a sealed envelope or not. Maybe they want it to be sealed so that it's acting as a more stable thermal pathway between the two parts. The "cake tin"/drum itself is such a thin, lightweight part that it's hard to image it having much influence as a thermal mass (using phase change material or not) upon the greater mass of the magnesium wheel.
3.14.2 Drum
The Front Drum and Rear Drum bodywork:
a. must be made to the geometry defined by RV−FWH−DRUM and RV−RWH−DRUM
respectively.
b. must be fitted with an Aerodynamic Seal, in the outboard of the two annotated
volumes, between the drum and the axle.
c. may be fitted with an Aerodynamic Seal, in the inboard of the two annoted volumes,
between the drum and the wheel rim.
d. both Aerodynamic Seals must be circumferential, continuous (around an arc of 360°)
and uniform.
Last edited by vorticism on 13 May 2025, 04:24, edited 1 time in total.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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Also, this would be speed depending, as the rate of heat convection would depend on the mass flow of air through the system. Thus, less heat convected away at lower speeds, and more at higher speeds. So it's possible that the drivers can help control tyre heating and cooling during their prep laps.
from the twitter link
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Watto
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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AR3-GP wrote:
12 May 2025, 17:52
Also, this would be speed depending, as the rate of heat convection would depend on the mass flow of air through the system. Thus, less heat convected away at lower speeds, and more at higher speeds. So it's possible that the drivers can help control tyre heating and cooling during their prep laps.
from the twitter link
Interesting - but on this did Stella say something along the lines of their solution was independent of the driver?

Then again you never know when teams through out little red herrings too to get opponents to look in the wrong direction.

Rikhart
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Re: Brake Ducts, Tire Cooling, and beyond

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AR3-GP wrote:
11 May 2025, 17:14
https://i.postimg.cc/3R6Zqf5k/image.png

What is it?
I feel we are getting warmer, pun intended 8)