Ferrari engine failures caused by pneumatic leaks

[autogyro]

Thanks gonek.
On the Ferrari issue, I still cannot see how they have the problem and other users of the engine do not.

Where is it written they have the same engine?

To be honest, I do not know the exact details of the engine regulations.
I thought that there was a requirement for F1 engine manufacturers to supply their engine to team customers at a set price and specification.

[ISLAMATRON]

Thanks gonek.
On the Ferrari issue, I still cannot see how they have the problem and other users of the engine do not.

Where is it written they have the same engine?

To be honest, I do not know the exact details of the engine regulations.
I thought that there was a requirement for F1 engine manufacturers to supply their engine to team customers at a set price and specification.

Who said the customers werent having problems?
Sauber has blown a couple and STR is just plain slow...

When an engine is homologated that same spec engine must be provided to the customer teams.

[autogyro]

So do we take from that, that the other Ferrari engine users can also break the seals and undertake modification?

[ISLAMATRON]

They wont do it themselves, as they are not allowed to break the sealsonthe engines, they have to ship the engines back to Ferrari for the "reliabilty" upgrades to be performed.

Thats why Pedro was corcerned about if there was enough time to get it done b4 the Spanish GP...
http://en.espnf1.com/sauber/motorsport/story/16110.html

[alelanza]

They had twenty people on the pit stops last year, so you may not have seen the guy with the bottle. It would probably have looked like a small fire extinguisher and people will probably not have focussed on him. Do some work on your digital records of races and a search on overhead pictures of pit stops and you will find him.

I certainly haven't seen him, have you? a bottle on the floor would most likely go unnoticed, but I haven't seen anyone actually refilling anything other than fuel. I do recall some exceptions being mentioned by the BBC crew, saying this or that team had to top up the pneumatic system during a race, but I'm not sure if it was Ferrari, and it surely was not mentioned as happening on a constant basis, more like a one off situation.
Now, during the last race BBC show during a quick news edit Massa said something to the effect of 'this was an upgrade that didn't work', i'll try to find it when i get home. If true, he was admitting they did an upgrade to the engine, and that would probably be the most likely explanation to the problem.

[010010011010]

I certainly haven't seen him, have you? a bottle on the floor would most likely go unnoticed, but I haven't seen anyone actually refilling anything other than fuel.

If you would car to direct your attention back one page there is a photo posted showing the man with the bottle...

[alelanza]

I certainly haven't seen him, have you? a bottle on the floor would most likely go unnoticed, but I haven't seen anyone actually refilling anything other than fuel.

If you would car to direct your attention back one page there is a photo posted showing the man with the bottle...

I can't see the pic from here, but I took a quick look at it in the morning from home right before leaving. The bottle was lying on the floor wasn't it? it also didn't look like a race pitstop, more like practice, but i don't quite recall.

[gonek]

Do you know if there is an 'off the shelf' balloon valve spring product, that could be used as a replacement on a fairly conventional engine?

Sorry autogyro, I haven't seen something like this. Here is that patent with balloon spring which I mentioned: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6830019.pdf If you haven't seen it maybe it will be useful for you.

Regards

[autogyro]

Do you know if there is an 'off the shelf' balloon valve spring product, that could be used as a replacement on a fairly conventional engine?

Sorry autogyro, I haven't seen something like this. Here is that patent with balloon spring which I mentioned: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6830019.pdf If you haven't seen it maybe it will be useful for you.

Regards

Thank you for that gonek. I have seen similar ideas but these patent designs look potentialy much better. Does nayone know if any are in use or are they all experimental? Also a shot in the dark, are there any companies making the systems for after market use?

[riff_raff]

are there any companies making the systems for after market use?

http://www.delwestusa.com/manufactured/ ... valves.asp

[autogyro]

Thanks for that riff raff.
30 years ago, I would have the machine shop make up a set and play around on the dyno. Might even end up with a reasonably cost effective product for an ordinary road sport engine.
Today it is a hugely costly development program that only works for large quantities.

[gonek]

Hi All

This topic is pretty old but recently I found something interesting that could be reason of Ferrari engine problems from beginnig of the season. Here is the link to one of the Ferrari patents: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/WO2009087441.pdf regarding PVRS. On page 10, line 23 they describe that the piston seal of the pneumatic spring in this system doesn't seal perfectly the spring chamber in order to allow a few amount of air to get out. This leaking air avoid oil to getting into the spring chamber so the volume of spring chamber stay the same. On the layout it can be seen that they do not use any relief valves on springs so they have no problem with rising the pressure casued by oil which can be in spring chamber. So, if Ferrari used (what is not for sure) such a system in their engines it could casue their problems because this system consume more gas from air tank. In previous season it wasn't problem because they could refill air tanks during pit stop.
It's also question, how they solved this problem if they really use such a system in their engines.
What do you think about it?

Regards