What is wrong with the safety car rule?

[timbo]

But the answer isn't arbitrarily sending people to the back of the grid (or even a lap down as some people propose). All you're doing is replacing some people gaining positions by moving up the grid with some people gaining positions because others are moved down the grid. Either way you have winners and losers and so far none of the proposed solutions appear any better than the current situation, they just shift the potential winners and losers around a bit.

The main thing that we talk about here is closed pits.
With that, pitting under SC would be exception, so that there's not only shift between gaining and loosing, but reduction of people taking chances.
My only concern is that penalty for pitting under closed pit-lane must leave not a single chance for a benefit for a car doing so, yet leave them possibility to compensate for it with good driving (which is why I think forcing pitting car to loose a lap is too harsh, but placing a car at the back of the pack is too shallow).

[timbo]

only people with clear damage would be able to pit while the pits were closed

Well, I see this as problematic. We would need stewards to judge whether there was clear damage or not. Ideally, the system must require as little attention from stewards as possible.

[myurr]

But the answer isn't arbitrarily sending people to the back of the grid (or even a lap down as some people propose). All you're doing is replacing some people gaining positions by moving up the grid with some people gaining positions because others are moved down the grid. Either way you have winners and losers and so far none of the proposed solutions appear any better than the current situation, they just shift the potential winners and losers around a bit.

The main thing that we talk about here is closed pits.
With that, pitting under SC would be exception, so that there's not only shift between gaining and loosing, but reduction of people taking chances.
My only concern is that penalty for pitting under closed pit-lane must leave not a single chance for a benefit for a car doing so, yet leave them possibility to compensate for it with good driving (which is why I think forcing pitting car to loose a lap is too harsh, but placing a car at the back of the pack is too shallow).

If a SC is involved then it's usually because there's been an accident. If this accident involved more than one car then there is a fair chance that there will be a damaged car trying to make it back to the pits. If they're going to be penalised as heavily as you suggest then there's no longer much point them trying to make it back to the pits at all, may as well just park up. In the modern era where there is little chance to overtake and there is only one pit stop, there's hardly any chance for even a front running car to make it from the back to a points position, especially so if we're already past the first pits. Better to save the engine, gearbox, etc.

An arbitrary penalty to shove any car involved in an accident that triggers the safety car, regardless of blame, to the back of the grid or more is a step too far in the other direction from where we are now.

In this last race only one driver is kicking up a stink because he lost out badly. He has gained from safety cars in the past yet bleats on about this one because it didn't go his way. If he had picked up a puncture in an accident that wasn't his fault that also triggered a safety car and he was then sent to the back of the grid, he would still be complaining and all his fans would be on here complaining about the rules and coming up with new SC solutions.

[WhiteBlue]

What the hell are you talking about? Nobody is being arbitrarily being sent to the back of the grid... the pits would be closed so nobody gets an unfair advantage(or is unfairly disadvantaged)... only people with clear damage would be able to pit while the pits were closed and for that they would be required to go to the end of the que(basically what the red light does now). Nothing arbitrary about it.

Closing the pits stops the random winners/losers situation and most importantly it gives the drivers no incentive to speed thru yellow flag sections.

Exactly. The only problem with the pit closure was the question of dealing with damaged cars or sudden monsoon.

Damaged cars go to the end of the queue in the order of pitting. For monsoons they can simply drop the SC speed continually until no aquaplaning occurs or they let everybody change tyres and restart the race behind the safety car after the tyre change
in the previous race order.

[ISLAMATRON]

My only concern is that penalty for pitting under closed pit-lane must leave not a single chance for a benefit for a car doing so, yet leave them possibility to compensate for it with good driving (which is why I think forcing pitting car to loose a lap is too harsh, but placing a car at the back of the pack is too shallow).

So you think everyone might pit after the SC leaves the track... then maybe yes a drive thru might be in order... that was the penalty incurred when pitting while the pits were closed before was it not?

only people with clear damage would be able to pit while the pits were closed

Well, I see this as problematic. We would need stewards to judge whether there was clear damage or not. Ideally, the system must require as little attention from stewards as possible.

Clear damage as something that would prevent them from pitting after the SC goes off, or causes a risk to them or others. A deflated tire, fire, flailing body work would seem appropriate, but not a nicked nose like LH had this weekend. Let the teams police it... just like they should allow the teams to police each other in technical specs/matters.

[WhiteBlue]

An arbitrary penalty to shove any car involved in an accident that triggers the safety car, regardless of blame, to the back of the grid or more is a step too far in the other direction from where we are now.

A fixed penalty for a driver whose car is damaged is not arbitrary. He would have lost similar or more time at race pace as I have already pointed out. Don't make it more difficult than it really is.

[myurr]

What the hell are you talking about? Nobody is being arbitrarily being sent to the back of the grid... the pits would be closed so nobody gets an unfair advantage(or is unfairly disadvantaged)... only people with clear damage would be able to pit while the pits were closed and for that they would be required to go to the end of the que(basically what the red light does now). Nothing arbitrary about it.

Closing the pits stops the random winners/losers situation and most importantly it gives the drivers no incentive to speed thru yellow flag sections.

Exactly. The only problem with the pit closure was the question of dealing with damaged cars or sudden monsoon.

Damaged cars go to the end of the queue in the order of pitting. For monsoons they can simply drop the SC speed continually until no aquaplaning occurs or they let everybody change tyres and restart the race behind the safety car after the tyre change
in the previous race order.

If you want to make sure that no one gains or loses why not be done with it and just do away with the safety car and red flag in that situation. If you want to keep a safety car you're going to have to accept situations where a driver wins or loses through the timing and circumstances of the safety car's deployment.

[myurr]

An arbitrary penalty to shove any car involved in an accident that triggers the safety car, regardless of blame, to the back of the grid or more is a step too far in the other direction from where we are now.

A fixed penalty for a driver whose car is damaged is not arbitrary. He would have lost similar or more time at race pace as I have already pointed out. Don't make it more difficult than it really is.

And as I have already pointed out you are wrong! If a car has a puncture but has a 20 second lead from the car ahead but is only one turn away from the pits then they would not lose enough time to place them at the back of the grid!!

[mep]

There is nothing wrong when you can go to to pits during safety car is no unfair thing it's part of the game. All drivers have the same changes and can make the best out of it. For sure pit should never be closed, and nobody should overtake SC, thats all.

Then how did Button get ahead of Alonso & Massa? all drivers DO NOT have the same chances and can not make the best of it.

Tell me how he did it?
Basically they all had the same chances Button maybe just made the best out of it and the others made something wrong but that’s the trick in the story.
Button proved several times that he is a very clever guy when it comes to strategy and that’s one ability you must have when you want to do well.
It is nice that this sport requires many abilities otherwise we would know long before the race that RedBull will win.

[ISLAMATRON]

There is nothing wrong when you can go to to pits during safety car is no unfair thing it's part of the game. All drivers have the same changes and can make the best out of it. For sure pit should never be closed, and nobody should overtake SC, thats all.

Then how did Button get ahead of Alonso & Massa? all drivers DO NOT have the same chances and can not make the best of it.

Tell me how he did it?
Basically they all had the same chances Button maybe just made the best out of it and the others made something wrong but that’s the trick in the story.
Button proved several times that he is a very clever guy when it comes to strategy and that’s one ability you must have when you want to do well.
It is nice that this sport requires many abilities otherwise we would know long before the race that RedBull will win.

He did it by being so slow and so far behind that while Seb, Lou, Fred & Fil were past the OPEN pit lane Button was behind it when the SC came out, there was absolutely nothing clever about it, and no ability invovled other than his ability to be consistantly slower than his teammate in the same equipment.

If the SC was slightly faster out of the pits it would have picked up SV and then Button would have been ahead of all 4 of them... Why? because he is slow and the pits were open... that is not why any driver should win a race.

[WhiteBlue]

An arbitrary penalty to shove any car involved in an accident that triggers the safety car, regardless of blame, to the back of the grid or more is a step too far in the other direction from where we are now.

A fixed penalty for a driver whose car is damaged is not arbitrary. He would have lost similar or more time at race pace as I have already pointed out. Don't make it more difficult than it really is.

And as I have already pointed out you are wrong! If a car has a puncture but has a 20 second lead from the car ahead but is only one turn away from the pits then they would not lose enough time to place them at the back of the grid!!

I doubt that you can make it nice and cosy for everyone and to the nth degree. If you are in an accident or picked up a puncture by debris your race is screwed anyway. Going to last place may even be an advantage. You cannot take out the last bit of good or bad luck from a motor race. The main point is that the vast majority of random luck will be eliminated and you are left with very little artificial drama. The drama will all be created by other circumstances and the penalty will be unavoidable, known before and be absolutely equal for all. That way it will be more acceptable.

[Giblet]

When a safety car comes out it's a crapshoot. It mixes up the race, always has always should. Trying to make it predictable, is nearly impossible, and impossibly stupid.

[myurr]

I doubt that you can make it nice and cosy for everyone and to the nth degree. If you are in an accident or picked up a puncture by debris your race is screwed anyway. Going to last place may even be an advantage. You cannot take out the last bit of good or bad luck from a motor race. The main point is that the vast majority of random luck will be eliminated and you are left with very little artificial drama. The drama will all be created by other circumstances and the penalty will be unavoidable, known before and be absolutely equal for all. That way it will be more acceptable.

I'll give you one last scenario where the current system produces a far better result than your proposed system.

Race leader, 20 seconds ahead of the pack, a corner or two from the pits picks up a puncture. Separately (or even in a connected incident with back markers etc) two cars collide, debris all over the track, safety car deployed.

With the current rules the race leader would be able to make it back to the pits, change his wheels, and come out again certainly within the top few cars. Under your rules the race leader would be dropped to either the back of the grid.

You also haven't explained how you're going to put cars to the back of the pack when it takes them a couple of laps to form up. Surely you're not going to hold cars that do pit for damage for a couple of laps at the end of the pit lane until everyone is nicely formed up?

[WhiteBlue]

Race leader, 20 seconds ahead of the pack, a corner or two from the pits picks up a puncture. Separately (or even in a connected incident with back markers etc) two cars collide, debris all over the track, safety car deployed.

With the current rules the race leader would be able to make it back to the pits, change his wheels, and come out again certainly within the top few cars. Under your rules the race leader would be dropped to either the back of the grid.

If the race leader gets hit by a puncture it is tough luck for him. Puncture is always bad news. He can have the asshole card in the current system as well depending of the scenario. So nothing changes but the bulk of the random drama that gets eliminated.

You also haven't explained how you're going to put cars to the back of the pack when it takes them a couple of laps to form up. Surely you're not going to hold cars that do pit for damage for a couple of laps at the end of the pit lane until everyone is nicely formed up?

If the cars must go to the back of the field they simply pass a green pit exit light and proceed until they catch the field. If the field is in the process of passing the pits they will have to wait and go a lap down. So it is simple standard practice.

[imightbewrong]

For once I agree 100% with islamatron, close the pitlane, no questions asked. If a driver has to then to the back of the grid with him.