Porsche announces possible return to F1

[xpensive]

I think it would be both risky and scary to let the Weissach engineers have another go in an isolated environment, why some sort of joint-venture with an xisting team should be healthy indeed in order to get the proper input from reality.

Perhaps Adrian Newey, or even more so Nick Wirth, would be the right guy to make sure we won't see another "3.5 V12"?

[WhiteBlue]

If they agree that Porsche will be the brand to go to F1 it will be a very different company compared to the Porsche of 1991 that struggled with an underfunded Footwork customer project. At that time Porsche was making losses and could not afford to put any money into F1.

A 2013 Porsche F1 project will have a totally different dimension. You can bet that the project will get the right funding and the full attention of the board. Renault have 180 people working in their F1 engine facility in Viry-Chatillon and MBHPE Ltd should not be much smaller. An annual budget of $100m has been mentioned by Ferrari for their engine project. The decision makers in Wolfsburg, Zuffenhausen or Ingolstadt will be aware what their competitors invest.

Naturally it will be important to cooperate with at least one leading chassis constructor. Red Bull would be excellent but there could also be one or two more teams like Williams, Sauber, Lotus, Force India, Virgin or Toro Rosso.

[xpensive]

If they agree that Porsche will be the brand to go to F1 it will be a very different company compared to the Porsche of 1991 that struggled with an underfunded Footwork customer project. At that time Porsche was making losses and could not afford to put any money into F1.

A 2013 Porsche F1 project will have a totally different dimension.
...

The 1991 3.5 V12 was an in-house Porsche project from the word go, run by Mezger himself, which was officially offered to anyone in Formula one interested. Footwork/Arrows just happened to be the suckers taking the bait.

Why things should be so different twenty years later is not quite as obvious to me as it seems to be for other members.

[zeph]

A lot has changed in 20 years. The world is not the same. I know I have changed. Everything changes all the time. Why would Porsche be the exception and stay exactly the same as it was then?

[twoshots]

Renault have 180 people working in their F1 engine facility in Viry-Chatillon and MBHPE Ltd should not be much smaller.

Source? Frankly, there is no way that they run on only 180 people.

[marcush.]

I think it would be both risky and scary to let the Weissach engineers have another go in an isolated environment, why some sort of joint-venture with an xisting team should be healthy indeed in order to get the proper input from reality.

Perhaps Adrian Newey, or even more so Nick Wirth, would be the right guy to make sure we won't see another "3.5 V12"?

with Nick wirths company consulting to Porsche Motorsport this is not far fetched..
I can only underwrite the claim by the Swede :
Germans ,especially in the south of Germany can be hopelessly impressed by themselves ignoring realities.I´m pretty sure the suit that claimed Porsche would be in a position to consider entering F1 has no idea of the implications and what is the state of things.
Porsche is not at all geared up for development and manufacturing of a f1 engine in Weissach,that is my impression.If they have the internal strength in depth to develop a cutting edge technology F1 raceengine for 2013 in time ,I´m rather doubtful.
With reasonable cash input a lot is possible of course but to all of my knowledge automotive mills are going slow ...and slower than we racers would think is possible without standing still. So for a automotive type of project planning a lead time of 2years from project kickoff to put into service is unthinkable,considering it is not a replacement for an existing project.

and ,again Porsche Motorsport is not even 200 people thats 60 mechanics,50boffins
and the rest administartive (sales etc people),you may count some PAG personal available towards the workforce to contribute but in effect the workforce has its hands full to satisfy the huge amount of customer cars that are produced and in service..

[xpensive]

Well marcush, after Trondheim where I'm at for the moment, I'm likely to end up in Ravensburg in January, which is pretty darn south, why I guess that I'm about to find out just how impressed by themselves them Sud-Deutche are?

But seriously, I seem to remember Piech himself saying that the current engine-rules makes F1 uninteresting for VW?

[marcush.]

Ravensburg is pretty much south,thats´s right.I got the feeling the bavarians are a bit more level headed than those in the stuttgart area so you might be lucky there...
tbh I should not have talked about south at all ,as if memory serves me right the worst cases of being unexplainably impressed with themselves are to be found in the area of cologne...but of course I might be completely wrong and it ´s me ...

[WhiteBlue]

Renault have 180 people working in their F1 engine facility in Viry-Chatillon and MBHPE Ltd should not be much smaller.

Source? Frankly, there is no way that they run on only 180 people.

I have read that recently in an article. They used to have 260 people but they have reduced employment in the last years due to the engine freeze.

Porsche is not at all geared up for development and manufacturing of a f1 engine in Weissach,that is my impression.If they have the internal strength in depth to develop a cutting edge technology F1 raceengine for 2013 in time ,I´m rather doubtful.
With reasonable cash input a lot is possible of course but to all of my knowledge automotive mills are going slow ...and slower than we racers would think is possible without standing still. So for a automotive type of project planning a lead time of 2years from project kickoff to put into service is unthinkable,considering it is not a replacement for an existing project.
and ,again Porsche Motorsport is not even 200 people thats 60 mechanics,50boffins
and the rest administartive (sales etc people),you may count some PAG personal available towards the workforce to contribute but in effect the workforce has its hands full to satisfy the huge amount of customer cars that are produced and in service..

It all depends of Ferdinand Piech's wishes. If he is behind this - which I think is true because Müller is a Piech man - they will simply go ahead and do it. Piech is a guy who does whatever is needed to succeed and he is famous for getting what he wants in terms of his projects.

But seriously, I seem to remember Piech himself saying that the current engine-rules makes F1 uninteresting for VW?

We are talking 2013 here and an engine that runs 10,000 rpm with turbo technology. Why is VW participating in the FiA/FOTA engine working group if Piech isn't interested to influence the rules to his preferences? The idea is to participate IMO.

But time will tell. We only have to wait and see.

[Chaparral]

If I had to make a guess I would think that Porsche would stay with their main business globally which is sports cars - theres talk of Porsche developing a LMP1 car for Le Mans with Penske running the outfit. Audi well their specialty is definitely deisal so I doubt that would change. Then we come to Volkswagon who have been back in F3 since 2008 with a 2 litre 4 cylinder (210bhp) motor powering the Euoseries F3 - they're in the prime seat to develop a 1.8 litre turbo 4 cylinder - it sort of makes sense to me that they'd use F1 to broaden VW's market.

[xpensive]

Naah, I think the obvious choce would be for VW to enter F1 as Lamborghini, they didn't do all that bad in the early 90s,
far better than Porsche anyway. Besides, that would break the "German" touch on things, which would be healthy as well.

[WhiteBlue]

My personal opinion is pretty much alongside Müller's. There are two brands that are clashing in sports car racing, Audi and Porsche. Porsche is likely to step up their activities to LMP1 and that would be a direct competition with Audi. Those two brands activities in top racing series need to be sorted out. Other brands are not relevant to the discussion at this time. The issue is which brand will remain in sports car racing and which will go F1 racing. There are equally good points to see Audi in F1 and Porsche in LMP1, but it is difficult to make Audi do something against Dr. Ulrich's convictions and preferences. This is why I think ultimately Porsche will take the F1 route.

Lambo, Bentley and Bigatti are niche luxury brands that will not help the group to sell substantially more cars by winning races. Bentley has already once used the Audi engine for one single try at LeMans and the activity was quickly dropped. I do not believe that there are compelling reasons to try this again.

Equally it would be wrong to pitch the VW brand over Audi in a top racing class. Audi has the higher brand image and is positioned to compete with Mercedes, BMW and other premium brands. So VW will always stick to less visible racing activities outside of the top series.

[Chaparral]

Equally it would be wrong to pitch the VW brand over Audi in a top racing class. Audi has the higher brand image and is positioned to compete with Mercedes, BMW and other premium brands. So VW will always stick to less visible racing activities outside of the top series.

That single statement is the very reason Porsche would persue a broader market presence with the VW brand in F1 - the other two brands are doing fine doing what theyre doing.

[WhiteBlue]

That is not a sensible brand strategy. Audi is the premium brand and not VW. You cannot race the bread and butter brand in the most visible class. It would create nothing but problems for Audi. Their reputation and heritage is based on racing. VW in F1 would position Audi under VW.

[gibells]

We could go on for ever with the reasoning for both sides of the argument. All of which is sound speculation. The main point for me is that it is exciting to have a major manufacturer involved in the formula.