Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[McHonda]

That's fantastic news. They will catch up, but only if the opposition stops where they are.

You think I was celebrating or praising that or something?.

You fail to mention the obvious and you get sarky comments about "Yeah coz everyone else will stand still lolz", but you mention the obvious and you still get sarky comments sent your way.

Got to love the internet.

I apologise if I offended you.

No, I don't think you were celebrating about Honda's progress.

I'd have to say that given Honda's "progress" this year that if they can match Renault's current power levels in 120 days it will be a minor miracle.

No worries, Yeah maybe I'm being optimistic there but I read earlier Illien has been working on the upgrade and Austria is being whispered about and I've got more faith in him than Simon but without the full picture it's just guesswork and hope really.

[godlameroso]

I don't have to hope, or think I'm dreaming when I state with 100% full confidence that engine will be competitive by Suzuka. I just know it, don't ask me how I know, you wouldn't believe me anyway, but I know.

Competitive with who or what?

You must the greatest optimist in the world!

They'll be competitive with everyone, I don't know if they'll be doing 330+kph down a DRS straight, but it's going to be a fair bit more than the 315 with DRS wide open that they're doing now.

[makecry]

I don't have to hope, or think I'm dreaming when I state with 100% full confidence that engine will be competitive by Suzuka. I just know it, don't ask me how I know, you wouldn't believe me anyway, but I know.

Competitive with who or what?

You must the greatest optimist in the world!

They'll be competitive with everyone, I don't know if they'll be doing 330+kph down a DRS straight, but it's going to be a fair bit more than the 315 with DRS wide open that they're doing now.

I don't have any faith left in Honda at this point. They haven't been able to do --- in 2.5 years now,there are no indications that they are going to produce this miraculous update that will magically make them competitive. The PU can't even last for a race properly with issues happening left and right , out of 14 entires, they have had 4 complete race distance without issues. At this stage, Zak Brown knows what he is talking about ie Honda seems lost. Alonso needs to get out of there and maybe find some other seat even though he has no where else to go, McLaren should accept it's fate of being a midfield team for foreseeable future.

[Chicane]

Dropping oil pressure due to mechanical issues { official Honda statement} and the way the engine sounded like a bag of nails before it let go says that they will need a new PU for Baku which means starting last. This level of performance, fuel efficiency and reliability is simply not acceptable. Other engine manufacturers will not be standing still. F1 is a moving target and by the time Honda get their update out their rivals would have had theirs too. Cannot believe this is the third year running and Honda continues to be grossly underpowered, unreliable and thirsty.

[toraabe]

Renault is more or less on pair with Ferrari / Merc in race trim. No doubt it is only the qualifying mode that is lacking... Honda. I still assume that they have got their gear ratio wrong ( too short )

I don't have to hope, or think I'm dreaming when I state with 100% full confidence that engine will be competitive by Suzuka. I just know it, don't ask me how I know, you wouldn't believe me anyway, but I know.

Competitive with who or what?

You must the greatest optimist in the world!

Renault has consistently been behind both Mercedes and Ferrari, and Honda is nearly at the same power as Renault.

Alonso was 10km/h/6mph down on Danny Ric in the race. The cars he had higher top speeds than did not have the opportunity to use DRS.

Palmer was the fastest of the Renault powered cars at 334.2km/h/207.7mph. Hulkenberg not far behind at 332.2km/h/206.4mph.

It's not like you can say the Renault has an amazing chassis which helps it launch out of the hairpin.

Can they catch Mercedes/Ferrari power wise in 120 days?. No chance.
Can they catch Renault power wise in 120 days?. Yes I believe so if the upgrade works well and Renault don't bring their upgrade.

That's fantastic news. They will catch up, but only if the opposition stops where they are.

[etusch]

Renault is more or less on pair with Ferrari / Merc in race trim. No doubt it is only the qualifying mode that is lacking... Honda. I still assume that they have got their gear ratio wrong ( too short )

by reading your comment I remembered 2004 Renault R24 car. You know it was very very fast at start and all acceleration points but not soo good at max speed. Maybe not that bad this Honda. I don't know but if Mclaren has approach like that they could be a bit better.

[Postmoe]

Honda is back to it's poor reliability of the Sato days. Sato used to grenade a Honda engine near the end of a grandprix very often. You could bet your house that Sato was going to blow an engine and create an oil shower.

Man, this is so true. The good old Sato days.


There is something deeply wrong with Honda metodology for their comeback. I'm talking about where to focus and the direction you choose when developing a project.

At this point, it doesn't matter if they will ultimatelly get it working, as I cannot, I simply cannot, support a manufacturer that wastes three seasons in a row punching a car until it works. Honda is doing this:



There are no aesthetics in getting this stupid bonus round.

[Andres125sx]

I'd have to say that given Honda's "progress" this year that if they can match Renault's current power levels in 120 days it will be a minor miracle.

To me that´s a must, not a miracle, at least when you take into account they´re working on this PU problems since December with no mayor upgrades despite the pathetic reliability AND perfomance, so after six months of work I´m not expecting a minor or standard jump forward, but a huge one

Otherwise I´d be very dissapointed with Honda if they´re doing almost half a season with a PU they know does not work since december, and then the upgraded unit they´re working on meanwhile is not a completely different beast



This said, yesterday Renault PU didn´t look slow at all while Hulkemberg passed Stroll at the straight...

[bigblue]

Not sure if it helps really, but Renault are ruling out a major upgrade this year https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/head ... -baku.html.

It was Red Bull who said that there would be an upgrade [in Baku],” said Abiteboul. “There are upgrades permanently - every single race we are making some small improvements.

Sounds familiar !

Frankly the next big upgrade will be next year. Then we will have a completely new concept.

That is odd, I'm sure they said they had a new concept this year, with much more headroom to develop.

Anyway, Renault are struggling as well on the upgrade front, although of course what they already have is much more reliable and somewhat more powerful than Honda.

Bonus question, has any engine manufacturer ever brought an upgrade of this magnitude mid-season (let alone in the current PU era) ?

the Honda PU needs a whole new upper-end(heads,cams,injectors,pre-chamber,main-chamber,pistons) and redesign MGU-H(stress is expanding bearings casing).....also do not forget all the new mapping!

(rumour via vtec.net). It is very much needed, but a tall order.

[harjan]

Somewhat more powerful? Honda is 70-90 bhp down on Renault

[Joseki]

Bonus question, has any engine manufacturer ever brought an upgrade of this magnitude mid-season (let alone in the current PU era) ?

No engine manufacturer ever needed such a big update to fix such a total disaster, that's why there has never been such a big update before.

Obviously IF the engine update ever gets on track and IF it gives them the result they expect.



And the Honda engine is miles behind the Renault engine, they are nowhere near in terms of power. Hulkenberg passed Alonso mid straight yesterday and pulled 40 meters in front at the end of the straight.

[mrluke]

And the Honda engine is miles behind the Renault engine, they are nowhere near in terms of power. Hulkenberg passed Alonso mid straight yesterday and pulled 40 meters in front at the end of the straight.

Right.

Alonso running around on 40 lap old tyres clearly had nothing to do with either traction off of the hairpin or the braking distance for the chicane.

[bigblue]

The actual horsepower deficit seems to be widely disputed, I've seen all kinds of figures from tens to a couple of hundred bandied around. It's outside my expertise to judge this. Anyway, whatever the number, it's obviously very significant in terms of lap-times, maximum speed etc. I only chose 'somewhat more powerful' because the Merc and Ferrari are even further ahead.

[Joseki]

And the Honda engine is miles behind the Renault engine, they are nowhere near in terms of power. Hulkenberg passed Alonso mid straight yesterday and pulled 40 meters in front at the end of the straight.

Right.

Alonso running around on 40 lap old tyres clearly had nothing to do with either traction off of the hairpin or the braking distance for the chicane.

Where did I mention traction and braking? I just stated a true fact: from mid straight the Honda PU is like a parachute behind the car.

It was clear when Stroll came out of the hairpin 30-40 meters behind and was in front of Alonso mid straight. And Stroll had used tyres against Fernando's fresh SS.

[SameSame]

And the Honda engine is miles behind the Renault engine, they are nowhere near in terms of power. Hulkenberg passed Alonso mid straight yesterday and pulled 40 meters in front at the end of the straight.

Right.

Alonso running around on 40 lap old tyres clearly had nothing to do with either traction off of the hairpin or the braking distance for the chicane.

Braking distance is irrelevant since Hulkenberg was long gone before the chicane.

Ocon managed to keep Bottas at bay for quite a while, despite the "40 lap old" tyre offset.