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HampusA wrote:Exactly, lewis earned his spot in f1 probably more so then any other driver that has ever raced in F1.
Ohh yea, being raised by Ron Dennis from early ages is so much harder work than a driver who has to look out for sponsors and managers that are willing to pay an initial sum to enter you into the top class of Motorsports in a low end F1 team.
Surely he had the talent, but that's why he was supported. I have no doubt that Perez in the McLaren would drive around at the back of the field....he would do the one and other rookie mistake, but so did Hamilton in his first season!
It's easy to blame either the team or driver, in the end both make decisions together. And if it had worked out, everyone would praise them for their brilliance (as someone already pointed out in another thread)
Hamilton should be thankful to sit in the McLaren, in a team that can go for new concepts and build a race winning car, a team which can respond and develop very quickly. He has never had to work his way up in a Virgin / Lotus / Toro Rosso....so he should indeed be thankful to the chance he was given. There is no team that has a record of being 100% correct in all strategic decisions!
Wow! logic! in this thread?Almost couldn't believe my eyes. Why shouldn't Lewis have paid his dues? Like Senna in a Toleman, or Alonso in a Minardi. While he is good, these two are just as good and they both have more wins and WCC's than Lewis, but they paid their dues IN F1. Winning in juniors is not paying his dues. Everybody in F1 wins in the junior categories.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970
“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher
How many people have better pre-F1 records than Hamilton? And I'm sure that Mclaren would have tested him and seen that he was quick, why do people need to "pay their dues"?
If I was amazing at something, I wouldn't want to spend two or three years working my way into a bigger team, I would want to start there, you can't fault him for that.
And I think Mclaren need to do the same thing with both drivers, unless the driver says otherwise, but in qualifying at Monaco you ALWAYS get a banker lap in, no matter what. So it's Mclarens fault for that call, but Lewis could of insisted to get a banker in, and they knew the tyres would last a lot longer than usual so they didn't need to save a set.
I love the way everyone says you should earn your place to drive for a top team, thinking about this why do you have to earn your place? once your in a top F1 car all you need to prove is that you are good enough,right? is hamilton not good enough? didnt he win a world championship?
Craig A wrote:I love the way everyone says you should earn your place to drive for a top team, thinking about this why do you have to earn your place? once your in a top F1 car all you need to prove is that you are good enough,right? is hamilton not good enough? didnt he win a world championship?
My thoughts exactly! He got to where he is on merit and he is staying there on merit.
Craig A wrote:I love the way everyone says you should earn your place to drive for a top team, thinking about this why do you have to earn your place? once your in a top F1 car all you need to prove is that you are good enough,right? is hamilton not good enough? didnt he win a world championship?
My thoughts exactly! He got to where he is on merit and he is staying there on merit.
staying there on merit? Abso freaking lutely. Getting there on merit? Absolutely debatable.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970
“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher
Pierce89 wrote:Wow! logic! in this thread?Almost couldn't believe my eyes. Why shouldn't Lewis have paid his dues? Like Senna in a Toleman, or Alonso in a Minardi. While he is good, these two are just as good and they both have more wins and WCC's than Lewis, but they paid their dues IN F1. Winning in juniors is not paying his dues. Everybody in F1 wins in the junior categories.
You're right – people in F1 for a long time do win more prizes than people in F1 for only a few years. By your logic, Coulthard is a better driver than Hamilton (or any other british F1 driver).
You miss Pierce' point entirely. Hamilton was molly coddled by Mclaren since the age of 13. He had every advantage to be made into a prodigy and did so without any grounding at a junior team.
Witness Vettel, Di Resta, Alonso, Massa, Schumacher for good examples of doing there time in lesser cars or teams to get a good grounding of F1.
Hamilton knows McLaren, but how will he fare elsewhere? He is a brilliant driver, no one can argue otherwise. I get the impression Hamilton is a great driver, knows he is, and doesnt give a flying toss about anyone or what he does. Grounding?
Perhaps he would have been even better if he did his time in a Sauber/Williams he would then know the priviledges he has driving a McLaren every year....
You miss Pierce' point entirely. Hamilton was molly coddled by Mclaren since the age of 13. He had every advantage to be made into a prodigy and did so without any grounding at a junior team.
Witness Vettel, Di Resta, Alonso, Massa, Schumacher for good examples of doing there time in lesser cars or teams to get a good grounding of F1.
So? Why should you have to have "grounding" in a lesser team – Hamilton proved he was quite capable of racing for a top team as soon as he arrived – he was only 1pt off the WDC!
You again miss the point. This is not about his driving.
Its about realising you cant have everything your own way when you want it, much like Monaco this weekend.
2 incidents with other drivers, and theyre "frikkin ridiculous" and hes being done for being "black".
His team make a mistake, and he fails miserably to give a unified front "came round the last corner, they said box to pit, and I came in and they werent ready".
Being at a mediocre team you learn that people make mistakes. You wont always have the fastest car, and that when incidents do occur you dont stick the boot in to fellow proffesionals calling them ridiculous.
If you cant see that he would appreciate his ride far more if he had 2 seasons in a donkey, then sir, constructive discussion will no longer be possible I'm afraid.
Why has this topic wandered off and become one about Hamilton's pre-f1 days?
This is a new thread, and was created after the end of the Monaco race. My personal interpretation is this was done by a Hamilton fan in an attempt to pass blame away from his hero, and towards others. But this time almost all the blame for such a dismal and chaotic showing by Hamilton is his, and his alone.
It has been advanced that Lewis was just told what strategy to adopt. That is not true. Drivers are briefed by their engineers, possible strategies are discussed, and the engineers brief the drivers as to the pros and cons of the decisions.
The choice to make just one run in Q3 was Lewis', and his alone.
This decision is a repeat of what happened in China, where Lewis did adopt the exact same strategy, wound up with an extra set of softs, and translated it into a win.
The thing is, Lewis attempted a repeat of China, and Lady Luck bit him on the butt.
To attempt to lay blame for a risky strategy on the engineers is just flat out wrong. They did not make the decision, they laid out possible scenarios, briefed the driver on the pros and cons of each decision, and maybe even made recommendations. But Lewis made the decision, no one else. In fact, his teammate, Button adopted another strategy, one that the other front-runners are currently employing, and parlayed it into a visit to the podium.
If you wish to sincerely lay the blame at the feet of the engineers, then it has to be recognized that they have to take the full credit for Lewis' win at China, because it was this very strategy that got him a win there.
If you wish to criticise someone, go for it, but to invent a scenario that is untrue, wow.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.
JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:2 incidents with other drivers, and theyre "frikkin ridiculous" and hes being done for being "black".
The point being that in the past, people have not been penalised for very similar incidents. Hamilton was penalised in Malaysia for the most minor of weaves... Maldonado does that to Hamilton and what happens... Hamilton gets penalised. It's not about it not going Hamilton's way – it's about it always going against Hamilton. To be honest, I don't blame him for being frustrated... but even when frustrated, he still had a sense of humor about it, to suggest that he was being serious when he was laughing as he said "maybe it's because I is black" is... one of hilarious or trolling.
Being at a mediocre team you learn that people make mistakes. You wont always have the fastest car, and that when incidents do occur you dont stick the boot in to fellow proffesionals calling them ridiculous.
If you cant see that he would appreciate his ride far more if he had 2 seasons in a donkey, then sir, constructive discussion will no longer be possible I'm afraid.
I don't think this is anything about having driven a mediocre car before – hamilton will always try to pass people. Always. That's what makes him such a brilliant racer. Sometimes (like with massa) he goes a little too far... If he didn't try though, it wouldn't come off some of the time.
Note – it's often quoted of senna that he put people in a position where either he is ahead, or they crash, it's generally considered one of the things that made him great. This is exactly what Hamilton does – He put schumacher in that position, schumacher yeilded. He put maldonado in that position, he didn't.
DaveKillens : 'But this time almost all the blame for such a dismal and chaotic showing by Hamilton is his, and his alone.' this is your opinion, and saying this thread is wrong etc,,, is your opinion, i think if we can have a thread critisizing his driving styles, we can have a thread about Calls by Mclaren,
If moderators dont agree with these types of threads, we should just stop them all, and say no threads critisizing or for drivers. We shut the schumi 2011 performance thread ... that was about a driver.
Anyways, teams make mistakes, and i think threads like this, and the other hamilton threads attract one thing : fanboyism, and bashing
N12ck wrote:DaveKillens : 'But this time almost all the blame for such a dismal and chaotic showing by Hamilton is his, and his alone.' this is your opinion, and saying this thread is wrong etc,,, is your opinion, i think if we can have a thread critisizing his driving styles, we can have a thread about Calls by Mclaren,
I was not criticising his driving style, I was attempting to make the point that the decision on strategy is one shared between the team and driver, with the driver almost always in the position to make the final decision.
This whole thread was constructed on the premise the team engineers selected the strategy, and Lewis had to ride it out. That is not the truth, and that one part, about it being untrue, is how I get around to mentioning that this thread is wrong, because it's constructed on untruths.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.
