Are we seeing a Vettel era?

[HampusA]

Is he really though? He started in Toro Rosso for his rookie year.

2nd year in F1 he had a very competitive car in 2009.
His 2nd year in Red Bull he crashed so many times you would think he was a rookie.
He still managed somehow to grab the title against all odds.

This year his car is superior and because Webber is doing bad, it makes Vettel look extra good.
If someone actually had the machine to challenge him things would look different.

If Vettel is miles better then it´s safe to say that Di Resta and Hamilton also is "miles better"

Or does it only work on one person?

[HampusA]

Why don´t you accknowledge the fact that the only reason he got that win was because Ferrari - Mclaren & BMW failed to set a time in Q3.

You see it as Vettel did something special. I see it as he was the person that won the race. Had it not been him it could have been anyone else that day.

Had the Trio started right behind him and he fended them off then we could have discussed the incredible driving by Vettel.

Reality is he got his has whooped in F3 by Di Resta and Hamilton.

The fact that you even have to go back as far as F3 in his career speaks volumes for where he is now and makes your current views about him even more illogical..well done. try reading up on Vettels races in his beginning stages till where he is now...better yet maybe try watching the races...

I did thank you very much. He got his ass handed to him the first year by Hamilton who dominated, which lated went into GP2 and dominated like nobody else.

His second year he had the exact same machine as Di Resta and still got his ass handed to him. I´m sorry if you love Vettel judging by your avatar but the facts are the facts.

We could compare Hamilton vs Alonso first year and Vettel vs Webber.

You could argue and say that Alonso is a slightly better driver then Webber right?
And the fact that this was not Vettel´s rookie season as it was for Hamilton.

And the fact that Mclaren and Ferrari were dead even that year.
Red Bull in 2010 was superior like this year.

[raymondu999]

Is he really though? He started in Toro Rosso for his rookie year.

2nd year in F1 he had a very competitive car in 2009.
His 2nd year in Red Bull he crashed so many times you would think he was a rookie.
He still managed somehow to grab the title against all odds.

This year his car is superior and because Webber is doing bad, it makes Vettel look extra good.
If someone actually had the machine to challenge him things would look different.

If Vettel is miles better then it´s safe to say that Di Resta and Hamilton also is "miles better"

Or does it only work on one person?

Yes, its safe to say hes miles better than last year. He's made some passes that actually stick; and is making much less mistakes. I'm not saying it only works on one person; but it doesn't mean everyone blooms at the same rate, or even in the same timeframe. Just because one flower on a tree has bloomed, doesn't mean that the rest of the flowers of that tree have bloomed. Nor dies it mean that the rest haven't. They are all mutually exclusive events. Some even wilt before they bloom.

You said it yourself that he drove like a rookie at times in 2010. If he isn't miles better, how do you explain making much less mistakes? I'm sorry but to claim he hasn't driven better in 2011 compared to 2010 is just plain ignorant.

[HampusA]

Btu somehow you assume Vettel blooms quicker then anyone else.
do you see where i´m getting at?

Nobody really talked about Alonso as the best driver on the grid when he was at Renault.

What makes him so good is what we saw last year and this year.
He´s second in the championship with a dog of a car (relatively speaking)

What i´m saying is that Vettel has never been in that position. Yet people praise him and somehow get this image that he´s the best driver on the grid.

Let him get a Red Bull that isn´t the quickest in the field and then we can discuss just how good or special Vettel is.

[raymondu999]

Once again; I must repeat. I said nothing about any others. I just said that Vettel is much better than last year; let alone his F3 year. Whether or not Hamilton/di Resta have undergone the same thing is a different issue.

And again I must reiterate that this thread is NOT about who is the best driver. It's about; will this current Vettel/RBR partnership stay as a dominant combo, or nearing-dominance?

[CHT]

I did thank you very much. He got his ass handed to him the first year by Hamilton who dominated, which lated went into GP2 and dominated like nobody else.

His second year he had the exact same machine as Di Resta and still got his ass handed to him. I´m sorry if you love Vettel judging by your avatar but the facts are the facts.

We could compare Hamilton vs Alonso first year and Vettel vs Webber.

You could argue and say that Alonso is a slightly better driver then Webber right?
And the fact that this was not Vettel´s rookie season as it was for Hamilton.

And the fact that Mclaren and Ferrari were dead even that year.
Red Bull in 2010 was superior like this year.

This is F1 we are talking about, not GP2 or other junior formula. Whatever happen in the past is history, that doesnt determine the success or failure of a driver in the future.

Could you tell me why beating Nelson Piquet, Jr. and Timo Glock in GP2 is such a big deal and winning the WDC in F1 with 4 or 5 other WDCs is not.

[PlatinumZealot]

You forget to add 'Newey Rocketship' to that.

This is the RedBull and "driver #1" era because whoever goes in that number one seat at RBR WILL win. Simple as that.

Did you see what the RB7 did at Monza... overtake on the outside with one wheel on the GRASS at near 150mph? that's some cartoon shizzle. Never saw that in F1.. ever. The RB5 and up are definitely one the best series of cars ever produced. It is even arguable that the RB7 is the finest F1 car ever made.

[Mandrake]

Nobody really talked about Alonso as the best driver on the grid when he was at Renault.

What makes him so good is what we saw last year and this year.
He´s second in the championship with a dog of a car (relatively speaking)

What i´m saying is that Vettel has never been in that position. Yet people praise him and somehow get this image that he´s the best driver on the grid.

Alonso is only 2nd because he made less mistakes than Hamilton and Mclaren (Button didn't make many mistakes, but was sometimes let down on strategy or reliability) If you say Vettel only shines because Webber does bad, you have to say the same about Fernando. He's also only looking much better than Massa because Massa gets hit by bad luck every race.

I said this before and I will gladly repeat it: Last year, Webber was on par with Vettel, having a WDC chance right to the end of the season! Either Webber has dropped massively, or Vettel is able to extract more of the RedBull than ever. Comparing Ham/But/Web I wouldn't say the RedBull is the best car on the grid.

[Mr Alcatraz]

Alonso is only 2nd because he made less mistakes than Hamilton and Mclaren (Button didn't make many mistakes, but was sometimes let down on strategy or reliability)

With all due respect I do not believe this is altogether true. I think you are shortchanging Fred for a couple reasons.
Alonso is where he is while driving the 5th/6th fastest challenger. His average q position is 4.46.
The only reason it is that high is his incredible consistency. Beside Vettel, Alonso is the only pilot to have not qualified any lower than 8th so far this season. I agree that Massa has been victimized by accidents that weren't his fault. But then again I also consider him an elite driver and every bit as good as Button and superior to Webber. As an example, if Felipe and Alonso's quali positions were reversed at Monza Fred would be the one that "Chopper" ploughed into. In fact it only stands to reason that the closer you qualify to the front the less likely you will be in an accident. Alonso has also been the victim of questionable strategy. Being second in the 5th/6th fastest car is sufficient evidence (IMO) that Alonso (this season) has extracted more out of his car than any other pilot with the possible exception of Vettel.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/statistics/2 ... ualifying/

[beelsebob]

For some reason this forum seems to be too biased towards some drivers,

vettel has been driving the hell out of the car for qualifying and initial part of the race to be where he is right now, meanwhile webber in similar equipment has scored only 58% of what vettel has scored, so please give that guy some credit for what he has achieved.

So its like saying Button is a champion only because of brawn gp and not his skills. One needs to acknowledge that first to out score his colleague in the same equipment before becoming a champion and colleagues are always not duds like Fisi, Kovi etc

P.S Button is outscoring Hamilton right now,

No one is asserting that Vettel isn't a good driver, or that he's not a better driver than Webber. He clearly is... But bear in mind that it only takes being a *little* better than your team mate to end up being a *little* better at 90% of the races, and hence a *lot* ahead in the points.

[raymondu999]

Using your reasoning though Beelsebob; Vettel is still the one who's faring best against his teammate. Even Alonso isn't consistently that "little better" than Massa; the points gap is smaller.

[beelsebob]

Using your reasoning though Beelsebob; Vettel is still the one who's faring best against his teammate. Even Alonso isn't consistently that "little better" than Massa; the points gap is smaller.

Really?

Last time I checked, Alonso had 210% of his team mate's points, while Vettel has only 170%. Not only that, but the points gaps at the top are bigger, so it's easier for Vettel to make a bigger lead over his team mate.

Alonso seems to be doing significantly better than Vettel at dominating his team mate.

[raymondu999]

I was talking nominally rather than proportionally; so yeah. It's very arguable each way.

The average gap between Alonso and Massa in qualifying has been .244s; while Vettel has been .423 above Mark on average. Seb's average qualifying position is 1.31; Mark is 4 on average. That's a difference of 2.69 positions. Massa has been 5.85 on average; Alonso 4.46; That's 1.39 difference.

When both finish; Fernando has outdone Felipe 8 times out of 10 (races where they both finish). Mark on the other hand has been outdone 1 time out of 12 drives.

[Pierce89]

Alonso is only 2nd because he made less mistakes than Hamilton and Mclaren (Button didn't make many mistakes, but was sometimes let down on strategy or reliability)

With all due respect I do not believe this is altogether true. I think you are shortchanging Fred for a couple reasons.
Alonso is where he is while driving the 5th/6th fastest challenger. His average q position is 4.46.
The only reason it is that high is his incredible consistency. Beside Vettel, Alonso is the only pilot to have not qualified any lower than 8th so far this season. I agree that Massa has been victimized by accidents that weren't his fault. But then again I also consider him an elite driver and every bit as good as Button and superior to Webber. As an example, if Felipe and Alonso's quali positions were reversed at Monza Fred would be the one that "Chopper" ploughed into. In fact it only stands to reason that the closer you qualify to the front the less likely you will be in an accident. Alonso has also been the victim of questionable strategy. Being second in the 5th/6th fastest car is sufficient evidence (IMO) that Alonso (this season) has extracted more out of his car than any other pilot with the possible exception of Vettel.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/statistics/2 ... ualifying/

you can't argue with that. Go Fred.

[Pierce89]

You forget to add 'Newey Rocketship' to that.

This is the RedBull and "driver #1" era because whoever goes in that number one seat at RBR WILL win. Simple as that.

Did you see what the RB7 did at Monza... overtake on the outside with one wheel on the GRASS at near 150mph? that's some cartoon shizzle. Never saw that in F1.. ever. The RB5 and up are definitely one the best series of cars ever produced. It is even arguable that the RB7 is the finest F1 car ever made.

actually the RB6 had a much larger time delta on the field than the RB7. Vettel and Webber just tried their best not to win last year's WDC, but I do beleive the RB6 was better.If they'd had DRS last year, the RB6 woul've won EVERY RACE except Monza. I will say that the RB7 is better than the RB6 in low DF config, but I much preferred the RB6 for speed over the field at most tracks. Regardless, RBR IS KICKING TAIL for the last three years.