Are we seeing a Vettel era?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

To me, it says that 18 out of 19 weekends, it had the fastest car+driver package in qualifying

Ok, if it was a car/driver thing my opinion is that it would be more like 10 out of 19 races.

Humans err. There would be substantial deviation if this car was being carried.

Machines less so. Even in Webbers hands the car was still fast. We dont know the full story regards Webber other than I haven't seen him ably challenge Vettel in 2011 whereas 2010 he did...many can draw their own conclusions from that as I have.

That only 1 car broke the RB7's strangle hold on a clean sweep of poles, should tell you everything you need to know about Dominance.

[raymondu999]

Humans err

everyone does. And as everyone does, it should kind of cancel each other out. It's like Alonso said a few years back. Drivers have moments of bad luck, and good luck. But everyone has them, and it pretty much evens out over a season.

[mnmracer]

Hamilton won all bar 4 of his races from the front row. Converting to percentages might make it look bigger, but 1 vs 4 is of course statistically negliable. That has nothing to do with skill.

The point is, the general idea of 'the great drivers that have won all these races by fighting through the field' is a romantacized myth. With just a few exceptions, every race win or podium has been achieved by being at the front, not by fighting through the back.

[bhall]

That only 1 car broke the RB7's strangle hold on a clean sweep of poles, should tell you everything you need to know about Dominance

On every type of circuit, too. That car was never lost.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

everyone does. And as everyone does, it should kind of cancel each other out.

Right so as we are understood, the difference is the machine yes?

Drivers have moments of bad luck, and good luck. But everyone has them, and it pretty much evens out over a season.

I dont agree with that.

18/19 poles is not lucky. That is by design, simple.

[raymondu999]

I wasn't saying 18/19 was out of luck. I was just pointing to a similar comment Alonso made.

Right now I'm just talking about qualifying. Why, for example, is Hamilton's Nurburgring or Kubica's Monaco lap so heralded, while for example Vettel's Suzuka pole wasn't? Going by yourstatement JET -

Right so as we are understood, the difference is the machine yes?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Converting to percentages might make it look bigger, but 1 vs 4 is of course statistically negliable. That has nothing to do with skill.

So as we were using statistics, is this no longer the required measurement?
4 race wins outside the top 2 is still 3 more race wins than 1. Its a tangible fact that we cannot dismiss so long as we are comparing statistically.

The point is, the general idea of 'the great drivers that have won all these races by fighting through the field' is a romantacized myth. With just a few exceptions, every race win or podium has been achieved by being at the front, not by fighting through the back.

Its not "romanticized myth", you have the stats to suggest Vettel is best at converting his wins from the front 2 places.
Other drivers are more successful at converting wins from further back, undeniable.
And it may be one or two cars more, but thats 1 or 2 cars more than Vettel has to race.
Sure we dont see drivers coming from the very back of the grid to win a race, and we probably wont seeing how the field has compressed over the years.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I wasn't saying 18/19 was out of luck. I was just pointing to a similar comment Alonso made.

When did Alonso make the comment and is it being used in context Ray?

Right now I'm just talking about qualifying. Why, for example, is Hamilton's Nurburgring or Kubica's Monaco lap so heralded, while for example Vettel's Suzuka pole wasn't? Going by yourstatement JET -

Right so as we are understood, the difference is the machine yes?

Sorry, Im scratching my head here.
Did Kubica or Hamilton have an RB6/7? Look at how many poles and wins these 2 cars had in 2010/11 then ask yourself why guys in lesser machines(fact) where lauded for shining. Why shouldn't they be?

33 poles from a possible 38.

That is just incredible.

[mnmracer]

Other drivers are more successful at converting wins from further back, undeniable. And it may be one or two cars more, but thats 1 or 2 cars more than Vettel has to race.

Do you really want to go into details of who was where at which point and how much racing was done? The reason we are discussing 'winning from the front', is about the skill necessary to win from the back. The difference in required skill between winning from p1 and from p4, is negliable.

Have a good start, and you're in the lead, or if that doesn't work but you are faster, you wait until the leader makes a pit stop, put in a fast lap and pass him in the pits. That is how pretty much every race win from recent times has been. There is no discernable difference in the skill required to win from p1 or p4 and all great drivers have roughly shown equal skill in that.

[raymondu999]

Different tracks have different demands; and different machines shine/fade on different circuits. What is your benchmark, from which you're saying that in Monaco 2010, and in Nurburgring 2011, the Renault and McLaren (respectively) were lesser machines? On balance of the rest of the season it would seem they are. But how are you deducing that on that particular day in history that they are slower? If you're using qualifying as a benchmark for the RB6/7 being dominantly fast - which I don't deny - why aren't you using qualifying as a benchmark for that Kubica Monaco 2010 lap, or the Nurburgring 2011 Hamilton lap?

As Giblet said earlier; nowadays you can't do much "transcending" of a car as pretty much every car is driven on the limit. If we take that - and you said too that the machine is the difference - why was it not the difference in Nurburgring 2011 for the McLaren?

The gist of my post is - if these 2 laps were attributed to a driver transcending his car, why is it that this is not possible for pole? Not for all 18 - but there were instances of this. Such as Abu Dhabi and Suzuka 2011. McLaren were capable of pole; and if I remember correctly McLaren drivers on those weekends actually did bang out laptimes that were quicker than Vettel's pole time - just that they didn't do it in Q3.

Also, about the Alonso comment; I urge you to reread my comment on it. I said "it's a bit like" when Alonso talked about luck. My point being; luck and human errors pretty much cancel each other out, in a similar fashion. Alonso was talking of a completely different thing.

Here's the original quote:

I always believe that luck and bad luck balance out by the end of the season and maybe this unwritten rule also applies to race tracks. If that's the case, I would be more than happy if last year's misfortune was paid back now! In fact, it seems that in general so far this season, luck has not come our way in the race in Montreal, not one damned thing went right

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Do you really want to go into details of who was where at which point and how much racing was done? The reason we are discussing 'winning from the front', is about the skill necessary to win from the back. The difference in required skill between winning from p1 and from p4, is negliable.

Have a good start, and you're in the lead, or if that doesn't work but you are faster, you wait until the leader makes a pit stop, put in a fast lap and pass him in the pits. That is how pretty much every race win from recent times has been. There is no discernable difference in the skill required to win from p1 or p4 and all great drivers have roughly shown equal skill in that.

Hang on a minute, there is no need to dig up that information. We would going off on a tangent there. The initial debate was regarding the RB7's superiority. Not Vettel's competence.

You see in my mind, I think anyone debating the RB7's dominance is ignoring the facts.
And anyone debating Vettel's competence is also ignoring the facts. He is very good.

Yet it is fully understandable, nay expected, that people will question Vettel's pedigree as a racer , when in close proximity to other drivers.
3 incidents in the rare occasion he is actually racing someone and not out ahead as is usually the norm. And that is not counting Canada when he succumbed to Button.

If people wish to argue the above, I will remain unmoved until I see it with my own eyes.
He is only 24 after all, and has plenty of time to put this right though.

I just think some people are putting him on a pedestal far too soon given the circumstances of his success.

[raymondu999]

Also; let the record show that I'm not taking part in JET vs mnm - Vettel's still a somewhat-rubbish overtaker and I recognize that. He's improved somewhat; such as in Italy/Belgium; and on fresh rubber he can overtake people on worn rubber; but he's still below the Hamilton level; or even Button level. WAY below.

[PlatinumZealot]

Hamilton won all bar 4 of his races from the front row. Converting to percentages might make it look bigger, but 1 vs 4 is of course statistically negliable. That has nothing to do with skill.

He had actual battles for the win though. That is the key difference. He had other cars that could take the win away and he had to fight right down to the wire. So many wins of Hamilton were met with adversity - "Cruise and colltect's" are rare for Hamilton.

Does Vettel even have any wins like Nurburgring 2011? Brawling till only one man stands? haha. didn't think so...

Can Vettel even overtake or defend against a car of equal speed? Have yet to demonstrated. All of his overtakes so far have been down-force, DRS assisted or first lap. Monza, Korea....

[Richard]

Three races is a meaningless sample size. We can't judge if someone is a good racer if they are rarely given the opportunity to race.

The car is too dominant for us to be a judge of Vettel's prowess other than to confirm he's good enough to nail a WDC, just like the other 5 WDC on the grid.

[bhall]

I don't even care about Vettel's worth at this point in the thread. That RB7's dominance is being disputed at all is absolutely blowing my mind. Such naivete is breathtaking.