Vettel just shy of Grand Slam, Hamilton beats penalty record

[mnmracer]

Yes, and I was talking of front row starts in a season. I'm well aware of Nigel's 1992 and McLaren's 88 pole records...

Overall, yes:

Most starts from front row in a season
Current record: Ayrton Senna in 1989, Alain Prost in 1993 and Damon Hill in 1996, each 16
Vettel: 13 front row starts, 18 front row starts possible

But Senna, Prost and Hill each have 100% in those years. Vettel's 18 out of 19 (if he qualifies front row rest of the season) is 94.7%.

[PlatinumZealot]

Maybe Vettel "feared" that Hamilton would pull a Hamilton and drive into him. Then fear would indeed be the right word

Ah.. this is what I mean. Like playing football with a guy who is so skilled that he embarrasses you when you try to defend against him, or a defender who you think is so strong that in the back of your mind you feel he'l break you leg with one of his tackles.

That is the kind of fear I mean. Fear where nerves set in and you do things that are not mistakes, but actions that your body seemingly can't control anymore.

[raymondu999]

Ah, but a tackle is intentional.

[PlatinumZealot]

Yes but doesn't change anything, as almost everything is sport is intentional.

[raymondu999]

Are you implying that Lewis would intentionally drive into another driver? That was what Mandrake said...

[PlatinumZealot]

An intentional tackle in football is not an intentional foul. An intentional "hang out" in F1 is not an intention to drive the other guy off the track.
Just the same when you're dribbling pass some bloke in football and making a fool of him as he looses his footing and goes bottom first onto the grass.

People don't want Hamilton making a "fool" of them for his own fanfare. Schumacher Vs Hamilton in china is a pretty good example.

[ringo]

I don't agree with this myth of Button being a better rain driver than everyone else.

He's won when the track dries, with opportune pit stops and attrition.

He's not won a race where it starts dry and gets wet. Or is completely wet Korea 2010.
As wet driving isn't his strength. His strength is chaos and how to make sense of it.

Well hes made a knack of winning in changeable conditions. Given the nature of these things, its rather more than just pure opportunism.
If his strength is how he makes sense of the chaos while driving, surely we can credit him as being better than others in these situations, no?

Yes you can. But then it changes the topic, as we were discussing Vettel's fears.

I don't think a driver will fear chaotic pitstops, since those are gambles and not much to do with the other drivers abilities in their lesser car.
Kovalinen is another chaos gambler like Button mind you.
changeable conditions are also not an accurate statement, as it implies intermediate tyre running.
It's either wet, intermediate or dry line. Button is good at knowing when to change onto the dry tyre for a drying line, which technically speaking isn't intermediate or wet driving skill. It's wisdom and experience, which i credit to button with much respect. He goes on the dry tyre when it is not needed, but he times it so by the time the line is dry, his tyres are up to temperature.
Similarly to Hulkenbergs pole position in Brazil last year.

When it comes to equalizing cars in damp or wet, i wouldn't really say he's top notch in all out pace. That's my only disagreement.

[izybluffen]

I also agree with JET. We have not seen Seb partner an already WDC, nor have we seen a worthy drive from him like Button in Canada or Webber in China. His best attempt was Silverstone 2010, when he was last, Rocky had to get on the radio and tell him "you can't just give up" which I presume he had a hissy fit. Then he was gifted a safety car, passed the slow cars easy only to get stuck in the mid field and had to crash into Sutil for 7th place. Also when he does'nt have the clear advantage he usually does not win. So I'm also waiting for when he has a better team mate or the RB is pretty much equal to the other top teams to truly judge his ability.

[kalinka]

@izybluffen : +1 and well said.

Also I'm not convinced yet he's not a crash-boy anymore. It's easy to achieve that from almost 100% pole position. Maybe Newey had it in his mind when he designed such a good qualy-car. Also interesting to notice that at the beginnig of the season everyone was saying qualy is not so important anymore because of the new tyres, yet it seems that it's more important than in previous years.
I think Vettel couldn't do much better than Webber if he finished on same positions as Webber in qualy. With one of the McLaren's + Webbber in fornt of him, I wonder how many wins he could grab so far. Of course it's silly to say that the qualy performance is not part of the racing/championship. I just think it masks out some of the weaknesses Vettel has.

[Traction]

No driver has to race against certain team mates in order to prove himself. If this were the case then there would be a ton of drivers who have won championships and never raced against certain other driver who would then not be considered "proven". If this argument was true then any driver that ever wins a WC and then gets beaten by his same team mate the next year would have to be considered to have been proven to be not worthy of tHE WC.

The on going attempts to discredut SB as a legitimate WC are farcical. Just have a look at his history in F1 and his need to prove himself any longer are thrown out the window. Bottom line?...he will be a double WC which not many so called proven drivers can lay claim to.

[Richard]

when he does'nt have the clear advantage he usually does not win.

err... what about Monza?

We all assume that the RB is cruising to a win and he makes it look easy every time. What we don't know is how close he is taking it to the edge. We don't know when RB are being threatened by others, or when they are taking it easy.

OK so we can pick out two or three instances this year when he has been beaten. However, can you find any WDC who has not been beaten a few times in their WDC season? Equally we have seen a few instances when he has won a hard fight, such as Monza.

All we know from this season is that the RB dominance has prevented extensive comparison with an equal car/driver/team. This season tells us nothing about Vettel's race craft because frankly he's barely had to use it.

We have very little evidence to make any judgement, and any attempt to do so is chasing shadows.

[wesley123]

No driver has to race against certain team mates in order to prove himself. If this were the case then there would be a ton of drivers who have won championships and never raced against certain other driver who would then not be considered "proven". If this argument was true then any driver that ever wins a WC and then gets beaten by his same team mate the next year would have to be considered to have been proven to be not worthy of tHE WC.

The on going attempts to discredut SB as a legitimate WC are farcical. Just have a look at his history in F1 and his need to prove himself any longer are thrown out the window. Bottom line?...he will be a double WC which not many so called proven drivers can lay claim to.

And that from the mouth of a 'fan' who only likes Vettel because he is currently winning...

Nobody here actuaqlly discredits Vettel as a WDC, yet they do about his ability. Red Bull delivered an dominant car, Vettel is doing nothing more then he is supposed to do, actually he is underperforming imo. He has been pretty much quickest in every race, yet he lost a few times due to his own mistakes. That is a part on which I discredit Vettel, he barely shows any racecraft and only does what he is supposed to do. If the tables were turned, ie Webber being the first driver the results would barely be different. I am also convcinced that when an Alonso, Hamilton or w/e driver next to him who gets a fair challenge within the team they would defeat Vettel, easily. Since the second half of last year Vettel has been the first driver within the team, so to state he is king or w/e is rubbish. Webber pretty much defeated him last year and Vettel could only win the WDC with his team help. An really good driver can win without his team support, when the car is good and when the car is bad, yet when Vettel isnt first through the first corner he is unlikely to win the race, Monza was his only one and there he was 1 sec a lap faster then Alonso. Vettel is a nice guy and carried by his team, but he isnt a Alonso or Schumacher

[raymondu999]

when he does'nt have the clear advantage he usually does not win.

err... what about Monza?

We all assume that the RB is cruising to a win and he makes it look easy every time. What we don't know is how close he is taking it to the edge. We don't know when RB are being threatened by others, or when they are taking it easy.

OK so we can pick out two or three instances this year when he has been beaten. However, can you find any WDC who has not been beaten a few times in their WDC season? Equally we have seen a few instances when he has won a hard fight, such as Monza.

All we know from this season is that the RB dominance has prevented extensive comparison with an equal car/driver/team. This season tells us nothing about Vettel's race craft because frankly he's barely had to use it.

We have very little evidence to make any judgement, and any attempt to do so is chasing shadows.

Bravo Rich. Bravo. Spot on. Some people say he hasn't shown true race craft etc; and isn't really fast etc; but for me the thing is; we have no basis of comparison as a lot of people still say. We can't say he's bad because we don't know that. We can't say he's good because we don't know that. (Relative to his 23 competitors of course)

Vettel could only win the WDC with his team help

How do you know his team gave him special help? There was Silverstone; yes. But in the last quarter of the year (which is when he came alive) how do we know that? Don't forget that he had a brake problem in Monza that lasted for only a lap; when Mark Webber was right behind him. It cleared not long after Mark overtook him.

when Vettel isnt first through the first corner he is unlikely to win the race, Monza was his only one

Barcelona? Monaco he lead into the first corner; but his advantage was nullified by a duff pitstop. Spa? Rosberg got him into T5 on lap 1.

[Traction]

No driver has to race against certain team mates in order to prove himself. If this were the case then there would be a ton of drivers who have won championships and never raced against certain other driver who would then not be considered "proven". If this argument was true then any driver that ever wins a WC and then gets beaten by his same team mate the next year would have to be considered to have been proven to be not worthy of tHE WC.

The on going attempts to discredut SB as a legitimate WC are farcical. Just have a look at his history in F1 and his need to prove himself any longer are thrown out the window. Bottom line?...he will be a double WC which not many so called proven drivers can lay claim to.

And that from the mouth of a 'fan' who only likes Vettel because he is currently winning...

Nobody here actuaqlly discredits Vettel as a WDC, yet they do about his ability. Red Bull delivered an dominant car, Vettel is doing nothing more then he is supposed to do, actually he is underperforming imo. He has been pretty much quickest in every race, yet he lost a few times due to his own mistakes. That is a part on which I discredit Vettel, he barely shows any racecraft and only does what he is supposed to do. If the tables were turned, ie Webber being the first driver the results would barely be different. I am also convcinced that when an Alonso, Hamilton or w/e driver next to him who gets a fair challenge within the team they would defeat Vettel, easily. Since the second half of last year Vettel has been the first driver within the team, so to state he is king or w/e is rubbish. Webber pretty much defeated him last year and Vettel could only win the WDC with his team help. An really good driver can win without his team support, when the car is good and when the car is bad, yet when Vettel isnt first through the first corner he is unlikely to win the race, Monza was his only one and there he was 1 sec a lap faster then Alonso. Vettel is a nice guy and carried by his team, but he isnt a Alonso or Schumacher

And that from the mouth of a 'fan' who only likes Vettel because he is currently winning...

What do you even know about me?...your assumption only highlights your ignorance.

Vettel is a cut above the rest of any of the current drivers on the track at the moment.(Except maybe Alonso). He is more dedicated, intelligent, faster and extracts more out of a car than any person knows how to.That and his team are the reasons why he is winning From the second he got into an F1 driver everyone knew exactly where he was going to end up and those predictions where based on his performances in well below average car.

To say that a driver can win races without the support of his team is just plain illogical and you know what I think of opinions that are based on such logic....

[Richard]

when Vettel isnt first through the first corner he is unlikely to win the race, Monza was his only one and there he was 1 sec a lap faster then Alonso.

Why not back this up with some stats from this season?