aerodynamics

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
MRE
MRE
0
Joined: 15 Jul 2004, 17:31

aerodynamics

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Hi to all Formula One fan. Did anyone has to surf this http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/foil4.html, I really enjoy designing a wing and adapt it to built rearand front f1 car's wing. Can we discuss about this?
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User avatar
Steven
Owner
Joined: 19 Aug 2002, 18:32
Location: Belgium

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hmm well tried it a little bit

I have one question though: it seems like to this application it doesn't matter if your wing stalls or not and it's downforce generated still increases. Is this really true? What is the fuss then about a stalling wing?

akbar21881
akbar21881
0
Joined: 28 Jun 2003, 22:49
Location: bristol,uk

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I tried it as well.Its kinda fun at the beginning as there are many variables can be tested and the results can be seen straight away.

I came across the same problem as Tomba.The wings didnt stall even if I put a maximum angle of attack to a very cambered wing.Lift( or -ve lift as I tried) still increased with the increase of angle of attack and camber.

So I assume that this application is only useful to show a preliminary results, and does anyone know whether the stall angle for a given wing can be determined by calculation or it has to be determined experimentally only?

Asphodel
Asphodel
0

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Chances are it using potential flow and it won't calculate separation.

MRE
MRE
0
Joined: 15 Jul 2004, 17:31

aerodynamics

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I still studying this sofware. There are many variable we could change. This simulation is about the plane wing, so its related to the altitude. Higher you go cause the air density decrease and so on to pressure. What make me wonder is the difference between lift and pressure. Take a note about chord and span length that effect the lift output. I'm using
-15.5% for camber to create downforce. +ve camber is used to create a lift to plane. This could be a basic to built an F1 car's wing.
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Reca
Reca
93
Joined: 21 Dec 2003, 18:22
Location: Monza, Italy

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Potential indeed. What you see is just the transformation of the potential flow around a circle, very simple to calculate (and a bit magical the first times you see it...), in the flow around an airfoil via the Joukowsky transformation (another quite magical thing...). The shape of the airfoil depends by a complex parameter, on that NASA program they added an interface so you can change camber and thickness instead of the real and imaginary parts of that parameter. Another similar transformation is the Karman Treffz airfoil it allows to set a further parameter, the angle of the trailing edge.
Then once you have the potential, to calculate lift (for the 2D airfoil) is quite easy. Then the lift for the wing is just lift of the 2D airfoil times the span… most of other options are just to set density without entering it directly (the program includes an approximate law for pressure and temp vs altitude and a few funny things like data about other planets).
Obviously it doesn’t calculate drag exactly because it’s a potential model. And obviously it doesn’t calculate separation of the boundary layer simply because in that model the boundary layer doesn’t exist...
The stall model apparently just overrides the calculation when AoA modulus is larger than 10 degrees, artificially straightening the streamlines, and adding a standard non linear part for the cl-alfa at higher angles.
Basically it’s just a tutorial game, funny to play with for a while but with zero practical utility.

In the following quote I put a little program for MatLab I made few years ago during the Uni days to plot the streamlines around the same Joukowsky airfoil so you can see the math behind it and play a bit if you have Matlab. Singularity is the complex parameter that defines the shape of the airfoil, for logical results both parameters should be –1< x <1, as for example –0.7+0.3i, but you can use any number you want if you don’t mind odd results...
A younger Reca wrote: function streamlines_j(a,al,l)
%
% Plots streamlines for a Joukowski airfoil
% and calculates chord (defined as maximum inscribed line)
% and the angle of attack of zero lift
%
% streamlines_j(a,alfa,l)
%
% a = singularity (complex number)
% alfa = angle of attack (degrees)
% l = number of lines
%
figure(1)
clf
t=[0:2*pi/(100):2*pi];
Q=exp(i*t);
q=Q+(((a-1)./2).^2)./(Q-(a+1)./2);
al=al*pi/180;

[r,t]=meshgrid(1:.1:5,-1:2*pi/100:2*pi);
[x,y]=pol2cart(t,r);
Z=x+i*y;
z=Z+(((a-1)./2).^2)./(Z-(a+1)./2);
F=exp(-i*al)*Z-(exp(-i*al)-exp(i*al))*log(Z)+exp(i*al)./Z;
contour(real(z),imag(z),imag(F),l,'b')
hold on
fill(real(q),imag(q),'r');
plot(real(q),imag(q),'r');
axis('equal')

k=size(q);
c=0;
for p=1:k(2)
if (real(q(p))-real(q(1))).^2+(imag(q(p))-imag(q(1))).^2 > c
c=(real(q(p))-real(q(1))).^2+(imag(q(p))-imag(q(1))).^2;
v= q(p);
end
end

line([real(q(1)),real(v)],[imag(q(1)),imag(v)]);
c=sqrt(c);
al=atan(imag(v)./(abs(real(v)-real(q(1)))))*180./pi;
disp('chord =')
disp(num2str(c))
disp('Angle of zero lift (degrees) =')
disp(num2str(al))

zoom
hold off

CFDruss
CFDruss
0
Joined: 08 Sep 2003, 18:47
Location: Tamworth (nr Birmingham) UK

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Reca - You certainly know your stuff my friend
Russell Harrison
Forced Convection Design Engineer, Comair Rotron Europe Ltd
CFD is based around assumptions; the accuracy of the solution depends not only on the knowledge of the mathematics behind the software but the assumptions the user makes!!!

Reca
Reca
93
Joined: 21 Dec 2003, 18:22
Location: Monza, Italy

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CFDruss wrote:Reca - You certainly know your stuff my friend
Only on the good days...

bernard
bernard
0
Joined: 06 Jun 2004, 21:10
Location: France/Finland

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A younger Reca wrote:...
Wow, younger reca sure seems to be in the know. I have to start giving you more credit if the older reca is even half as good as he seems to have been. :)