Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

[Mr.S]

I don't think the car is a winner, although I seriously hope I'm wrong. The Red-Bull is surely the car to beat, McLaren might have closed the gap to them and Ferrari seems to be written off by everyone but could surprise us all. In fact, I think that they are sandbagging a lot and due to that Merc might find themselves fighting for the same positions again. A step forward would be to fight for 4rth, 5th place in every Gran Prix and if things go well reach the podium. Everything above that might not be realistic though.

That would be a gigantic failure.

Mercedes in their first season had 3 Podiums. Last season was not good. But Michael had two 4th places probably, Nico & Michael had 1 5th places each.

Why should Ferrari sanbag??? The car is clearly completely unreliable & they have no idea how to get it to work. Maybe they have improved & I dont rule out Ferrari winning,they are Ferrari,anything can happen.

If Mercedes cant win 1 race & achieve multiple podiums I think the entire manangement including Haug will get fired. This was a WDC-WCC team whatever the resources were. Mercedes probably did not know the ground reality,but two consecutive 4th places. And you still say they should come 4th.

Without EBD & SWB the car is more or less close to Mclaren's pace as Silverstone clearly showed. There is no reason not to Challenge Mclaren & Ferrari this time. If there is another 4th place,Mercedes board will surely quit.

Red Bull took a Jaguar & in their 5th season they had the fastest car in the 2nd half of the season. Mercedes took a WDC-WCC winning team which had SHITLOADS of HONDA money & top class equipments & if they cant achieve podiums in their 3rd seasons then they are in trouble,especially considering 3 podiums in their 1st year.

[Cocles]

Red Bull took a Jaguar & in their 5th season they had the fastest car in the 2nd half of the season. Mercedes took a WDC-WCC winning team which had SHITLOADS of HONDA money & top class equipments & if they cant achieve podiums in their 3rd seasons then they are in trouble,especially considering 3 podiums in their 1st year.

You're picking an choosing your history here to support your point of view instead of describing the whole story.

Why not mention that Red Bull caught up in the middle of a season, because Brawn lacked the money and personel to develop the car at the same pace as their competitors?

Or even better... here's two words you left out of your description: Adrian Newey.

I agree with you. Merc needs to get third this season, or at the very least barely miss it. Otherwise, heads could roll. What I don't agree with is your "Merc had everything, Red Bull had nothing!" hyperbole.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

What I don't agree with is your "Merc had everything, Red Bull had nothing!" hyperbole.

The facts agree with your assessment Cocles.

[diego1960]

Mr S. the team has not been a "championship winning team" since the middle of the 2009 season. Last year finally Dr. Zetsche made the decision to allow Brawn to hire more people in order to slowly get the team in place too achieve something great.

4th place isn't always a failure, it mainly depends on the gap from the frontrunners and the way this position was achieved. In 2011 Merc was far behind Ferrari so if this year they are fighting for the same places I would definately consider it a step forward. It is also important to have in mind that Force India or Lotus might prove to be better than we think too.

You write about the car being on par with the McLarens. Well, we can't be sure of that and I do not believe a comparison can be made as we don't know fuell loads, tyre condition, engine revs as well as which of the drivers really pushed the car to it's limits. I seem to recall though that Jenson deliberately did not ride the kerbs like the Merc drivers did.

Again, in your last paragraph you write about the "shitloads" of money from Honda and the top class equipment. I think this is wrong. Do I need to remind you that unless Brawn had won the championship, the team would be in deep financial trouble as the car did not have any sponsors and Honda left money only for one season to ensure the team's survival? As for the equipment, much of this belonged to Honda and was stationed in Japan, and we saw that Merc in order to compete had to build a new state-of-the-art simulator.

As for Red-Bull claiming the championship after 5 years, it was down to Newey's excellence and the change of regulations that allowed such a "leap".

[marcush.]

formula 1 is dynamic.Nobody can predict if all the front runners are as strong as they were .So if it´s first or last is not just their effort but just how ell others do.
The question is simply were those performance targets the team set itself high enough to challenge for wins.Brawn sid it meets all the targets they have set themselves hinting at others improving more than expected?

[Huntresa]

Without EBD & SWB the car is more or less close to Mclaren's pace as Silverstone clearly showed. There is no reason not to Challenge Mclaren & Ferrari this time. If there is another 4th place,Mercedes board will surely quit.

Red Bull took a Jaguar & in their 5th season they had the fastest car in the 2nd half of the season. Mercedes took a WDC-WCC winning team which had SHITLOADS of HONDA money & top class equipments & if they cant achieve podiums in their 3rd seasons then they are in trouble,especially considering 3 podiums in their 1st year.

Eh why are you comparing last years cars ? They are not the same, especially not for Merc, and 2nd Red Bull started winning cause Adrian Newey found something within the regulations that no one else did, much like some teams had DDD at the start of 2009, which led them to win. It doesnt matter how much money or lack of money in Brawn GPs case, if you have found something that is a HUGE boost this will prob mean you got a HUGE advantage timewise aswell. When Honda was in the sport they spent buttloads of money, what did that give them? It gave them nothing, their biggest achivemnt is still Mclaren-Honda era.

[marcush.]

both w01 and w02 simply did not have the performance potential not over a single lap not over a stint not over a race distance and were both given up on by the team too late in season .Interestingly both times MGP failed to realise or allow them selves to concede failure in producing something competitive but vowed to solve the issues only to struggle to close the gap significantly.
i think this time it´s all different .The car meets the targets set that should allow them to develop from a good base.

[Mr.S]

Mr S. the team has not been a "championship winning team" since the middle of the 2009 season. Last year finally Dr. Zetsche made the decision to allow Brawn to hire more people in order to slowly get the team in place too achieve something great.

4th place isn't always a failure, it mainly depends on the gap from the frontrunners and the way this position was achieved. In 2011 Merc was far behind Ferrari so if this year they are fighting for the same places I would definately consider it a step forward. It is also important to have in mind that Force India or Lotus might prove to be better than we think too.

You write about the car being on par with the McLarens. Well, we can't be sure of that and I do not believe a comparison can be made as we don't know fuell loads, tyre condition, engine revs as well as which of the drivers really pushed the car to it's limits. I seem to recall though that Jenson deliberately did not ride the kerbs like the Merc drivers did.

Again, in your last paragraph you write about the "shitloads" of money from Honda and the top class equipment. I think this is wrong. Do I need to remind you that unless Brawn had won the championship, the team would be in deep financial trouble as the car did not have any sponsors and Honda left money only for one season to ensure the team's survival? As for the equipment, much of this belonged to Honda and was stationed in Japan, and we saw that Merc in order to compete had to build a new state-of-the-art simulator.

As for Red-Bull claiming the championship after 5 years, it was down to Newey's excellence and the change of regulations that allowed such a "leap".

Which team in the world gives 100 Million when pulling out??? Ross Brawn made a 100 Million+ Profit by just selling the stake to Mercedes.It is ridiculous,the team has top notch facilities. Especially considering a Jaguar.

Honda had a budget of 700-800 Million every year before pulling out. Everything you need,they had. Jaguar was a mid-field team grabbling with finances. The State of the Art Simulator??? Everybody had to build one,including Lotus & Ferrari because people did not need simulator because they could test the cars on road. With RRA & the 15 day limit on testing people have to use more of a simulator. The richest team in F1 -> Ferrari too had to build one.

I dont buy Jenson avoiding kerbs. I dont. Maybe he did that 1 or 2 laps. That does not become a general norm. If he did,Mclaren have no idea where they are & are in trouble. I saw Hamilton's race simulation times & I hear he was fairly aggressive.

2011 was a year where the car had fundamental mistakes & EBD changed the game.Without all that the cars all are much closer. 2011 can not be used a meter to judge. In 2010 Merc had 3 Podiums & Genuinely beat Mclaren & Ferrari on pace numerous times like in Malayasia(Mclaren),Turkey(Ferrari).

In 2011 both Michael & Nico have beaten Massa multiple times & Nico had lead Chinse GP too on the colder climates.

I dont buy Hamilton turning his engine rev. down as there could be fundamental problems with that & the whole Race Simulation & Data becomes a joke as that could significantly alter the time.

[Mr.S]

Red Bull took a Jaguar & in their 5th season they had the fastest car in the 2nd half of the season. Mercedes took a WDC-WCC winning team which had SHITLOADS of HONDA money & top class equipments & if they cant achieve podiums in their 3rd seasons then they are in trouble,especially considering 3 podiums in their 1st year.

You're picking an choosing your history here to support your point of view instead of describing the whole story.

Why not mention that Red Bull caught up in the middle of a season, because Brawn lacked the money and personel to develop the car at the same pace as their competitors?

Or even better... here's two words you left out of your description: Adrian Newey.

I agree with you. Merc needs to get third this season, or at the very least barely miss it. Otherwise, heads could roll. What I don't agree with is your "Merc had everything, Red Bull had nothing!" hyperbole.

You must understand Toyota & Jaguar then. Toyota had World Class facilities,Jaguar was middle field team. Toyota had a 700-800 Million budget like Ferrai or Mclaren used to have those days. Jaguar was grappling with finances trying to make it through respectably.

Toyota gave Brawn a 100 million Goodbye gift. Seriously...

And Mercedes have Ross Brawn,Michael Schumacher & now Bob Bell-Aldo Costa-Geoff Willis. Bob Bell had 100% input on this car working from April.

I am not expecting ridiculous things. I expect what Ferrari did last year. 1 Race Sim,Regular Podiums (5-6).

That is it. And I want 3rd place. Mercedes should beat either of Ferrari Or Mclaren. Mclaren car has no huge tricks & they have lost huge time due to EBD. Ferrari were in the doghouse & have a complete new car. Mercedes should beat 1 of them & get 3rd place atleast & be within 0.5s of Red Bull.

Nico's Race Simulation was Lightning Fast,if he does times anywhere near that W03 will be a Sureshot winner regardless of what the others do.

[Ozan]

Let's have quick summary of Mercedes Team and cars.

w01:
-successor of BGP001, but not an evolution like RBR
-no updates evolutionary like rbr
-big disappointment for the team

w02:
-totally new car,high nose etc.
-reliability problems made the team modify the showdown car
-couldn't adapt EBD like mclaren
-chewed the tyres without performance gains
-only competitive in low downforce circuits

w03:
-evolution of w02
-new concepts like F-Duct, Mini Double Diffuser etc.
-no reliability problems like w02
-new updates, new staff
-aerodynamically good shaped car

second barcelona test was the car's first official long range test and it proved to be reliable in long runs and race distances. but still some problems about chewing the tyres, however with set-ups this can be fixed. I think this week the team will be doing performance build-ups and try mixed setups. let's see what we really got under the hood

[Schulteiss]

Which team in the world gives 100 Million when pulling out??? Ross Brawn made a 100 Million+ Profit by just selling the stake to Mercedes.It is ridiculous,the team has top notch facilities. Especially considering a Jaguar.

Honda had a budget of 700-800 Million every year before pulling out. Everything you need,they had. Jaguar was a mid-field team grabbling with finances. The State of the Art Simulator??? Everybody had to build one,including Lotus & Ferrari because people did not need simulator because they could test the cars on road. With RRA & the 15 day limit on testing people have to use more of a simulator. The richest team in F1 -> Ferrari too had to build one.

I dont buy Jenson avoiding kerbs. I dont. Maybe he did that 1 or 2 laps. That does not become a general norm. If he did,Mclaren have no idea where they are & are in trouble. I saw Hamilton's race simulation times & I hear he was fairly aggressive.

2011 was a year where the car had fundamental mistakes & EBD changed the game.Without all that the cars all are much closer. 2011 can not be used a meter to judge. In 2010 Merc had 3 Podiums & Genuinely beat Mclaren & Ferrari on pace numerous times like in Malayasia(Mclaren),Turkey(Ferrari).

In 2011 both Michael & Nico have beaten Massa multiple times & Nico had lead Chinse GP too on the colder climates.

I dont buy Hamilton turning his engine rev. down as there could be fundamental problems with that & the whole Race Simulation & Data becomes a joke as that could significantly alter the time.

I hardly think that part of that 100mil had not found its way back to Honda, but whatever. 7-800 mill is a HUGE exaggeration, it was not even close to that, and certainly less than Toyota, at their time, and even they were not throwing that kind of money at their team. So forget the shitload of Honda money, if it was a question of money only -which is not the case - than Toyota, Honda and BMW would be multiple champions now which they are not. As to the state and size the team was in when Mercedesd took over and the following 2 years, read the latest Autosport mag. Mercedes now has the best infrastructure, and resources are back to the level required to be a top team again. State of the art sim? Only 2 teams have currently state of the art simulators: McLaren and Mercedes. The Mercedes one is said to be more advanced though, due to it being newer. Building that simulator cost around 40-60 million euros as I heard last year and has taken appr. 2 years to finalize. Ferrari has a new simulator too, on par or a little better than the Red Bull one, and even that seems to mess up things for them, it does not correlate with the wind tunnel and track yet. All in all, 3rd place should be easily possible from Mercedes this year, the car seems to be a good platform to develop, and if that is true, Mercedes will develop in big steps.

[Pierce89]

I don't think the car is a winner, although I seriously hope I'm wrong. The Red-Bull is surely the car to beat, McLaren might have closed the gap to them and Ferrari seems to be written off by everyone but could surprise us all. In fact, I think that they are sandbagging a lot and due to that Merc might find themselves fighting for the same positions again. A step forward would be to fight for 4rth, 5th place in every Gran Prix and if things go well reach the podium. Everything above that might not be realistic though.

That would be a gigantic failure.

Mercedes in their first season had 3 Podiums. Last season was not good. But Michael had two 4th places probably, Nico & Michael had 1 5th places each.

Why should Ferrari sanbag??? The car is clearly completely unreliable & they have no idea how to get it to work. Maybe they have improved & I dont rule out Ferrari winning,they are Ferrari,anything can happen.

If Mercedes cant win 1 race & achieve multiple podiums I think the entire manangement including Haug will get fired. This was a WDC-WCC team whatever the resources were. Mercedes probably did not know the ground reality,but two consecutive 4th places. And you still say they should come 4th.

Without EBD & SWB the car is more or less close to Mclaren's pace as Silverstone clearly showed. There is no reason not to Challenge Mclaren & Ferrari this time. If there is another 4th place,Mercedes board will surely quit.

Red Bull took a Jaguar & in their 5th season they had the fastest car in the 2nd half of the season. Mercedes took a WDC-WCC winning team which had SHITLOADS of HONDA money & top class equipments & if they cant achieve podiums in their 3rd seasons then they are in trouble,especially considering 3 podiums in their 1st year.

Ferrari is completley unreliable and they haven't started to understand it.. =D> =D>
Yet they're still doing similar lap times to Merc?

[Mr.S]

I don't think the car is a winner, although I seriously hope I'm wrong. The Red-Bull is surely the car to beat, McLaren might have closed the gap to them and Ferrari seems to be written off by everyone but could surprise us all. In fact, I think that they are sandbagging a lot and due to that Merc might find themselves fighting for the same positions again. A step forward would be to fight for 4rth, 5th place in every Gran Prix and if things go well reach the podium. Everything above that might not be realistic though.

That would be a gigantic failure.

Mercedes in their first season had 3 Podiums. Last season was not good. But Michael had two 4th places probably, Nico & Michael had 1 5th places each.

Why should Ferrari sanbag??? The car is clearly completely unreliable & they have no idea how to get it to work. Maybe they have improved & I dont rule out Ferrari winning,they are Ferrari,anything can happen.

If Mercedes cant win 1 race & achieve multiple podiums I think the entire manangement including Haug will get fired. This was a WDC-WCC team whatever the resources were. Mercedes probably did not know the ground reality,but two consecutive 4th places. And you still say they should come 4th.

Without EBD & SWB the car is more or less close to Mclaren's pace as Silverstone clearly showed. There is no reason not to Challenge Mclaren & Ferrari this time. If there is another 4th place,Mercedes board will surely quit.

Red Bull took a Jaguar & in their 5th season they had the fastest car in the 2nd half of the season. Mercedes took a WDC-WCC winning team which had SHITLOADS of HONDA money & top class equipments & if they cant achieve podiums in their 3rd seasons then they are in trouble,especially considering 3 podiums in their 1st year.

Ferrari is completley unreliable and they haven't started to understand it.. =D> =D>
Yet they're still doing similar lap times to Merc?

Ferrari have not done 40-50 laps on the go. No Race Simulations. Impossible to even guess their fuel load.

Their times are nowhere near Mercedes'.

Nico's Race Simulation was Quicker than Sebastian's & more than half a second quicker than Webber's. Add that Seb did 5 Pit Stops instead of Nico's 3,that adds 7-8 tenths Worth of Time/Lap to his times.

Hamilton's time was around 1.3-1.4 seconds Slower than Nico & he did 1 Full Pitstop extra w& the time if accounted will be close to 3-4 tenths/lap.

Nico's time was Beyond Amazing in his Race Simulation. If Mercedes does those times in an actual race then THEY ARE GURANTEED podium might even win it. But seeing how Mercedes could not get even within 1s of their best Barcelona time, I wouldnt rule them out being much slower than this.

The VERY encouraging signs is that THESE are Race Simulation & Long RUN pace not 10-12 Lap pace or Qualifying Run pace like last year.

[Mr.S]

BTW Piece Massa has said Ferrari were in the doghouse & only since yesterday afternoon they have managed to get a decent direction regarding their car.

They have been unable to do more than 20-25 laps at a strech forget a race simulation. The Ferrari is rumoured to work on a "VERY SHORT WINDOW". I dont rule out Ferrari,they are Formula1's greatest team in history & can win the WDC any time.

But at present Mercedes should be slightly ahead of them atleast.

[Pierce89]

speed trap results courtesy of james allen
Mercedes 320.5
Toro Rosso 319.5
Caterham 318.5
Force India 317.5
Sauber 315.8
McLaren 314.9
Ferrari 311.2
Williams 311.2
Red Bull 310.3

fast in a straightline if nothing else but it might mean we lack downforce compared to the slower teams.

interestigly redbull is the slowest like last year and is likely to be much better in the corners than us, i just hope its not a sign that mercedes sacrafice downforce for straightline speed with their design philosophy

I really don't like seeing Merc at the top of the speed traps list. It 's makes me feel that once again Merc is lacking in downforce,