Race track design and safety

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SeijaKessen
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Joined: 08 Jan 2012, 21:34
Location: USA

Race track design and safety

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This is just an open question regarding track design as it pertains to risk/reward and safety.

I've had a few discussions elsewhere regarding this topic.

I'm sure all of us would agree that the Tilke designed tracks leave a bit to be desired...and that's putting it mildly. :lol:

Most fans favor the classic F1 tracks by and large whether they are still visited by F1, or not. Even those currently used have seen overhauls of various sections of the track whether it is the addition of chicanes, larger runoff areas, or completely redoing the runoff with tarmac instead of gravel. I know much of it was done under the guise of safety for drivers to avoid having problematic corners or areas of the track that were at risk for serious and/or fatal crashes.

What my question is, did things go too far in that direction so as to kill off certain characteristics of tracks? Keep in mind, I'm not advocating tracks be designed so that if one were to crash in certain areas, they could be crippled or killed.

There was a story related to me, I forget the specific names (someone here might know) regarding Monza as it existed prior to the early 1970s. One of the teams was working on slipstreaming, but one of the drivers knew that his car was capable of taking Curva Grande flat-out without lifting off the pedal. Every time he went to try to take it flat-out, he would back off the throttle. He finally took the curve flat-out, and wound up putting 200 yards between him and his teammate whereas before Grande they were bumper to bumper. I always thought it was an interesting risk/reward situation. The reward was pretty significant, but obviously there is a risk involved with taking the old Curva Grande flat-out.

Did we lose something with the way circuits are nowadays? It feels like drivers aren't penalized anywhere near the way they were many years ago for leaving the track. Spa comes to mind with the latest tarmac runoff areas.

Imola is another track I felt that got neutered because of Senna's death. I personally loved the old Imola with the Tamburello and Villeneuve into Tossa sections. I always felt as if the soul of Imola got stamped out with the redesigns. The old Silverstone was spectacular. Hockenheim was another.

Racing by definition is dangerous, and likely always will be...and circuits will always have some sort of danger involved. But I wonder with how good the car safety is nowadays relative to the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s, would it be the worst thing if the cars ran on the old circuit layouts? Albeit with the modern safety features in place like the soft walls NASCAR circuits have and so forth. I feel like today's drivers are missing out on the thrill that many of the circuits in the past had to a degree and I feel like when there is a little more risk involved with a circuit, it makes for more interesting racing because of the psychological aspect that can be involved with certain areas.

Anyway, not that there is a right or a wrong on this...just interested in opinions.

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Race track design and safety

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I can't find much to say since I think we probably feel very similar. In answer I say yes we have lost a lot and much of it in the name of safety.
You know Jackie was at the forefront of the battle for increased safety but even he has said we have gone too far.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Cold Fussion
Cold Fussion
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Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 04:51

Re: Race track design and safety

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I agree there are far to many tarmaced run off areas now, and a tarmaced run off isn't going to stop you from flying into the barriers all that well.

beelsebob
beelsebob
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Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: Race track design and safety

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Cold Fussion wrote:I agree there are far to many tarmaced run off areas now, and a tarmaced run off isn't going to stop you from flying into the barriers all that well.
On the contrary – it's excellent at it – that's why they do it. The only time it doesn't work so well is when the car is not on it's wheels, which is a rare case, and it's why there are gravel traps behind the tarmac run off.

That said, yes I agree that there's too much tarmac run off, it does mean that drivers aren't punished enough for having an off.

zorog
zorog
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Joined: 15 May 2010, 21:01

Re: Race track design and safety

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I was reminded of this recent NASCAR crash

How this can happen is beyond me, the driver is nearly impaled on a concrete wall, with pit crew lucky too!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOMQeAX6JFc[/youtube]

timbo
timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Race track design and safety

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beelsebob wrote:That said, yes I agree that there's too much tarmac run off, it does mean that drivers aren't punished enough for having an off.
This is easily remedied by placing speed-bumps, as is done in Monza. I think system regulates itself and now we are close to optimum as far as runoffs go.

beelsebob
beelsebob
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Re: Race track design and safety

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timbo wrote:
beelsebob wrote:That said, yes I agree that there's too much tarmac run off, it does mean that drivers aren't punished enough for having an off.
This is easily remedied by placing speed-bumps, as is done in Monza. I think system regulates itself and now we are close to optimum as far as runoffs go.
Nah, the speed bumps at monza caused several cars to get launched, they were nothing but dangerous... Remember, the tarmac run off only slows cars down *when they have their wheels on the track*.

Nando
Nando
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Joined: 10 Mar 2012, 02:30

Re: Race track design and safety

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You could make a case that the new speed bumps at Monza is more dangerous for the driver.
They destroy the car and we last saw Vergne complaining about back pain.

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I think tracks should do away with the asphalt stuff. If you make a mistake today it´s no problem, just get back on track.

Before you sat in a gravel pit and probably had that thought for the rest of the weekend where it was up to the driver to overcome that fear of getting stuck and laying it on the line in the Qualifying or Race.

This is what is great with certain parts of Suzuka, all of Monaco except straight line braking zones and Singapore.
If you make a mistake you are done most of the times.

I say either bring astroturf everywhere outside the track or bring back gravel that will stop you like a parachute.
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."

timbo
timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Race track design and safety

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IIRC Verne got airborne before hitting speedbumps or kerbs.
Speedbumps have to be placed strategically, on the exit routes from runoff.

Nando
Nando
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Joined: 10 Mar 2012, 02:30

Re: Race track design and safety

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timbo wrote:IIRC Verne got airborne before hitting speedbumps or kerbs.
Speedbumps have to be placed strategically, on the exit routes from runoff.
He definitely hit the curb which sent the car up in the air.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZc7iyCr ... re=related[/youtube]

Image
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."

timbo
timbo
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Re: Race track design and safety

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Nando wrote:He definitely hit the curb which sent the car up in the air.
I stand corrected.
But I think kerbs are needed in places like this -- i.e. at the apex side of the turn. It is better to look at seat design to avoid back injury.

Nando
Nando
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Re: Race track design and safety

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timbo wrote:But I think kerbs are needed in places like this -- i.e. at the apex side of the turn. It is better to look at seat design to avoid back injury.
Yea i´m all for kerbs. I just don´t see how these are safer. instead of a gradual one they have these lumps that only destroy the car and sends the car up in the car more rapidly.
They were terrific the ones they used to have, big wide kerbs where drivers could shine if they had setup the car for that.
We have for example seen Massa break his suspension twice in India among other stuff.
They just don´t seem any safer to me.

Seat would be hard because they essentially sit on the floor so the impact will trickle it´s way into the spine no matter how you position the body.
I guess if you lean the drivers more it could be less painful but i believe there´s a certain angle where the brain works best, not to mention visibility.
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."

timbo
timbo
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Re: Race track design and safety

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Nando wrote:Seat would be hard because they essentially sit on the floor so the impact will trickle it´s way into the spine no matter how you position the body.
I guess if you lean the drivers more it could be less painful but i believe there´s a certain angle where the brain works best, not to mention visibility.
I think seating position needs to be looked onto in future. There are signs of this, not sure how far they would go. There can be mandated foam thickness under the driver etc.

As for todays kerbs -- gradual ones would always invite drivers to cut them more. I see that you liked that, and it did looked cool, but modern "donuts" also have their positives as far as showing driver's precision. They remind me what kerbs used to be before Barichello's accidents, and they awarded different type of drivers.

Nando
Nando
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Joined: 10 Mar 2012, 02:30

Re: Race track design and safety

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True, i guess there´s as much finesse to get these right as it was jumping them with the whole car.
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."

Lycoming
Lycoming
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Joined: 25 Aug 2011, 22:58

Re: Race track design and safety

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the point of tarmac runoff is so that if a driver gets a bit out of shape and goes off track, he has tarmac on which to regain control. At some places it really is quite excessive if you think of this as the goal.

The high kerbs at monza (and other places) are there to keep you from cutting the chicane. No doubt they will launch you if you go over it fast enough.