Alonso on Vettel vs Hamilton

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Abarth
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Re: Alonso on Vettel vs Hamilton

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I believe Vettel should have done more out of his car in the second half of 2009, when the Brawn was loosing his superiority. I think the Red Bull was ready even in that season.
Vettel and RedBull had more starts from first row, they had more quickest laps, etc.

I'm pretty sure Alonso or Hamilton would have won the WDC in a Red Bull in 2009.

And yes, i believe Alonso is spot on.

Nando
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Re: Alonso on Vettel vs Hamilton

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Interesting :)

Lewis overtaking Alonso,
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb2whssa ... ure=relmfu[/youtube]


Vettel trying to overtake Hamilton,
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDAeIxhr ... ure=relmfu[/youtube]
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Hangaku
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Re: Alonso on Vettel vs Hamilton

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jamsbong wrote:I seriously disagrees with Alonso's comment. Vettel won in a Toro Rosso! Lewis was and still is spoon fed into the best team - Mclaren and was defeated by Jenson Button. Come on...
In equal machinery, where McLaren had no involvement (i.e. every series that Hamilton drove in prior to F1) he beat everyone and won everything. So, how does your argument stand about him being spoon-fed, when armed with this undeniable evidence?
Yer.

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Echo
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Re: Alonso on Vettel vs Hamilton

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Nando wrote:Interesting :)

Lewis overtaking Alonso,
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb2whssa ... fu[youtube]
Cant stop smiling and thinking of Monza 2011 when Lewis was desperate to pass Schumi :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdExBpCpukI

On the post above mine. Yes, Hamilton won about everything he could in all classes.
He won the Yamaha 100cc class in gokart which is extremely comptetitive and he also won all the gokart series. He really is a true talent to questioning about it.
Last edited by Richard on 11 Apr 2012, 15:21, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed image quoted from post above
Rich teams should only be allowed to win

Nando
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Re: Alonso on Vettel vs Hamilton

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Echo wrote:Cant stop smiling and thinking of Monza 2011 when Lewis was desperate to pass Schumi :)
I thought Schumi did very well there up until the point he started blocking.
But apart from that he did a good job of holding Lewis up.

I bet he´s pissed at the times Hamilton fooled him like in China or Malaysia :)
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GrizzleBoy
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Re: Alonso on Vettel vs Hamilton

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Echo wrote:
Nando wrote:Interesting :)

Lewis overtaking Alonso,
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb2whssa ... fu[youtube]
Cant stop smiling and thinking of Monza 2011 when Lewis was desperate to pass Schumi :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdExBpCpukI

On the post above mine. Yes, Hamilton won about everything he could in all classes.
He won the Yamaha 100cc class in gokart which is extremely comptetitive and he also won all the gokart series. He really is a true talent to questioning about it.
Lewis was held up more by his car than he was by Schumacher.

What's more annoying about that scene however, is how noone seems to remember that:

-Jenson only got past Hamilton because Schumacher shoved Hamilton into the grass. I wonder if Hamilton would have been given the "awesome defending" award for doing the same?

-Jenson only got past Schumacher because Schumacher went off the track.

-Hamilton was actually being too respectful to Schumi and could have easily done the same "awesome defending" that would have stopped Schumi from retaking his place.


Back in the day, having your team mate kill the fast guys tyres s0 you could get through used to be called teamwork.

Giblet
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Re: Alonso on Vettel vs Hamilton

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Lewis wanted to finish a race. He had just come off a bunch of a string of hits and mistakes, and really needed to bring the car home.
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raymondu999
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Re: Alonso on Vettel vs Hamilton

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GrizzleBoy wrote:Back in the day, having your team mate kill the fast guys tyres s0 you could get through used to be called teamwork.
Well for what it's worth, Hamilton performed that job well in Monza 2011! :lol:
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jamsbong
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Re: Alonso on Vettel vs Hamilton

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Hangaku wrote: In equal machinery, where McLaren had no involvement (i.e. every series that Hamilton drove in prior to F1) he beat everyone and won everything. So, how does your argument stand about him being spoon-fed, when armed with this undeniable evidence?
1. There is no doubt that Ron Dennis helped him through out his career and he was given a seat on a top team in F1 from day 1.
2. He was given unlimited pre-season testing before his first F1 race.
3. Almost everyone who joined F1 are champs at the lower formulae but starts off their F1 career on a weak team.
4. Alonso (reluctantly) given Hamilton his telemetry. This undoubtedly aided Hamilton. Clearly Mclaren's bias management was enough to force Alonso exit to a weak team - Renault, despite his huge hunger to win on a strong Mclaren team.

Clearly Hamilton had it easy, thus spoon-fed.
I think Hamilton's honeymoon period has finished, thus explains his ever poorer results. :lol:

bhall
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Re: Alonso on Vettel vs Hamilton

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I'm hesitant to say this, because I don't want to incur the wrath of Hamilton's die-hard fanbase. That fear, however, hasn't quite muted my genuine interest in the opinions of others.

All I ask is that you please understand that the following sentiments are not intended to be nefarious in nature. They're merely my thoughts on the matter.

(This is largely just copied from a recent PM conversation.)

I think Hamilton is a classic case of getting too much too soon and that McLaren has done him a great disservice by putting him in their car immediately as he entered F1. His talent is as obvious now as it was then, but there's a reason why Mercedes, Red Bull and Ferrari have their drivers placed elsewhere down the grid before being called up to "Big League" service.

That Alonso, the defending two-time defending World Champion, imploded in 2007 for reasons completely unrelated to his rookie teammate only made matters worse. I get the distinct feeling that Hamilton has no grounding whatsoever, and I think that's extremely problematic.

It's not necessarily his fault, either. His first impression of F1 must have made him feel invincible, as he had a car that would do anything he wanted - the unofficial champ - and he regularly handled his drowning two-time Champ of a teammate. There's no doubt in my mind that those results, even if circumstantial, inflated his ego quite a bit. How could they not? Were it me, I'd likely be tempted to try to actually walk on water.

But, look at him now. He's not #1 at his team anymore, and he makes a lot of mistakes, especially when he tries to repeat the magic he found with the magic wands McLaren gave him in 2007 and 2008.

He says all the right things and seems to make all the right moves. But after all of the talk, I was shocked to see the "newly-focused" Hamilton with Nicole Scherzinger and Lenny Kravitz as his guests in the garage for the first race this year. That's what focus looks like?

I'm convinced he has to go elsewhere. He's under the false, if perhaps slightly noble, impression that he is McLaren. You can see it on his face that he wears defeat like the shame of someone who's totally at fault, much the same way he celebrates victories as if they are solely his own. He's got the appropriate rhetoric mastered in his comments, but the eyes never lie.

I think he needs to go somewhere where doing everything just right nets a miraculous 8th-place finish - no, that is not a Ferrari suggestion. I just think that understanding limitations is vital in the knife-edge world of F1, where doing too much is just as detrimental as not doing enough.

That would take a minor miracle, because I don't know that he has the wherewithal to go somewhere to build his own legacy. His handlers certainly don't. Hamilton at McLaren is a cash-cow, and that's notoriously all they care about.

Like I said, those are just my thoughts. They're not an attack.

EDIT: Man, I've really got to stop writing books for posts.
Last edited by bhall on 12 Apr 2012, 05:41, edited 2 times in total.

jamsbong
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Re: Alonso on Vettel vs Hamilton

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bhallg2k wrote:EDIT: Man, I've really got to stop writing books for posts.
:lol:

Lycoming
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Re: Alonso on Vettel vs Hamilton

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I think thats a fairly accurate analysis, and I could consider myself to be a Hamilton fan. Could you elaborate on the "grounding" part? I'm not really sure what you mean by that.

Also, I think at this point, having him spend a season in, say, a Force India, would change little. He's had the experience of fighting for a points finish in the first half of 2009 and that did not seem to have changed much.

I would also like to add that I think there is a point to be made in that he does not seem to have developed the same level of maturity as even Vettel, which I agree, is in part a product of the way he was brought into F1.

Of course, there is no correlation between age and maturity.

bhall
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Re: Alonso on Vettel vs Hamilton

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Lycoming wrote:Could you elaborate on the "grounding" part? I'm not really sure what you mean by that.
A surface analysis of this rookie year would seem to indicate that Hamilton was no legend-in-waiting; he was already there. He equaled his teammate, the two-time defending World Champion who had defeated both Raikkonen and Schumacher to win those titles, and he often pulled off impossibly optimistic and picturesque moves along the way. That he did all of that and only narrowly lost the WDC to Raikkonen in a resurgent Ferrari only embellished the picture. That was his introduction to the pinnacle of motorsport.

If one scratches the surface, however, I think a more representative picture emerges. The MP4-22 was a great car. Had it been used in a scenario whereby its drivers weren't constantly taking points off of each other, I think the MP4-22 would at least be mentioned in the same breath as other contemporary F1 masterpieces. It had no glaring flaws, and it was very forgiving. Because Hamilton didn't have to battle the car at all, he was free to focus on battling rivals.

His biggest rival, Alonso, was a shell of himself that year. Even if it wasn't quite reality, his perception saw everything that could possibly go wrong do just that. I think it devastated him to walk into the clinical environment at McLaren, a team for which he wanted to drive since he was a child so that he could be the next Ayrton Senna, and find himself treated merely like Driver A, rather than as Fernando Alonso, two-time World Champion and superstar.

And then there was spygate, for which Alonso played a significant and distracting role... The point is that the gods smiled down upon Hamilton that year and created the absolute best incubator for hype that I've ever seen.

But, Hamilton didn't know that, even if he did know that. (You know?) How could he? To him, that was just Formula 1. He didn't know any better, and I think it wrecked his perception of reality.

I could go on and continue to point out things here and there, but I think I've made my idea clear. (And I really, really gotta stop it with these books. They just seem to happen, though.)

I just think Hamilton's gotten a strangely raw deal out of his career thus far, and it all comes down to getting too much too soon and with no context whatsoever.

myurr
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Re: Alonso on Vettel vs Hamilton

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bhallg2k wrote:I think Hamilton is a classic case of getting too much too soon and that McLaren has done him a great disservice by putting him in their car immediately as he entered F1. His talent is as obvious now as it was then, but there's a reason why Mercedes, Red Bull and Ferrari have their drivers placed elsewhere down the grid before being called up to "Big League" service.

That Alonso, the defending two-time defending World Champion, imploded in 2007 for reasons completely unrelated to his rookie teammate only made matters worse. I get the distinct feeling that Hamilton has no grounding whatsoever, and I think that's extremely problematic.

It's not necessarily his fault, either. His first impression of F1 must have made him feel invincible, as he had a car that would do anything he wanted - the unofficial champ - and he regularly handled his drowning two-time Champ of a teammate. There's no doubt in my mind that those results, even if circumstantial, inflated his ego quite a bit. How could they not? Were it me, I'd likely be tempted to try to actually walk on water.

But, look at him now. He's not #1 at his team anymore, and he makes a lot of mistakes, especially when he tries to repeat the magic he found with the magic wands McLaren gave him in 2007 and 2008.

He says all the right things and seems to make all the right moves. But after all of the talk, I was shocked to see the "newly-focused" Hamilton with Nicole Scherzinger and Lenny Kravitz as his guests in the garage for the first race this year. That's what focus looks like?

I'm convinced he has to go elsewhere. He's under the false, if perhaps slightly noble, impression that he is McLaren. You can see it on his face that he wears defeat like the shame of someone who's totally at fault, much the same way he celebrates victories as if they are solely his own. He's got the appropriate rhetoric mastered in his comments, but the eyes never lie.

I think he needs to go somewhere where doing everything just right nets a miraculous 8th-place finish - no, that is not a Ferrari suggestion. I just think that understanding limitations is vital in the knife-edge world of F1, where doing too much is just as detrimental as not doing enough.

That would take a minor miracle, because I don't know that he has the wherewithal to go somewhere to build his own legacy. His handlers certainly don't. Hamilton at McLaren is a cash-cow, and that's notoriously all they care about.

Like I said, those are just my thoughts. They're not an attack.

EDIT: Man, I've really got to stop writing books for posts.

The reason Ferrari and Red Bull incubate their drivers isn't for the driver's benefit but because they don't want to take a risk with a driver. McLaren took a HUGE risk putting Hamilton straight into the A-team with many people criticising them for it before the start of the season. Indeed if memory serves the expectation even at McLaren was that Hamilton would take a few races to get up to speed and even score solid points finishes.

For some reason there's a widespread belief that F1 drivers need to serve a year or two in a rubbish car in order to grow or become more complete, but I actually think Hamilton demonstrates that this isn't the case. People are just having a very selective memory about what he has achieved and are overlooking his performances when the McLaren was a dog. And how many potentially great drivers have had there careers crushed because of a poor car, or have been flattered by doing well in a poor car only to show no sign of championship winning material when given a great car (think Fisichella for example).

Alonso's 'implosion' is also a lot more complex than you make out. In his rookie year Hamilton was coming into F1 at a time when many of the top drivers were having to change their driving styles to adapt to new tyres. This, to a degree, flattered his early performances where had the top drivers been fully up to speed they probably would have been another tenth or two quicker. In some ways this kept him in touch with Alonso in those early races, but he was still having to learn how to set the car up for the race and get the best out of the tyres over a race distance. This led to strong qualifying performances but slipping back a tenth or two in the races, just about keeping in touch with the race leader but not being able to challenge.

But he was able to take advantage of strong performances in those early races to put pressure on Alonso through an impressive run of podium finishes. By the Canadian GP Hamilton was fully up to speed in the races and to me that GP weekend was where Alonso imploded. It was widely commented by people like Brundle that Alonso just could not reconcile the fact that Hamilton was as fast as him and was beating him fair and square. It was then that the conspiracy theories and requests to the team to give Alonso an advantage that started his decline.

But Hamilton had already established himself at that point as being able to challenge and beat Alonso in equal machinery. And despite Alonso's grumbles and psychological issues over the remainder of the season, he was given equal machinery and opportunity over the entire rest of the season. Alonso under performed in a couple of races, as did Hamilton, but over the course of the entire season they slugged it out and came out equal on points with Hamilton technically beating him. Had McLaren favoured Alonso then he probably would have been world champion. Had they actually given Hamilton unfair advantage, such as letting him race Alonso at Monaco instead of playing it safe and holding station, then Hamilton probably would have been world champion.

Moving on to this last season or so and there are a lot of complex reasons for Hamilton's performances. My own view is that the tyres aren't helping him. They're flattering Vettel and Button to a degree by compromising the attacking drivers style and stopping them from cranking out the lap times. Race pace is four or five seconds off qualifying even in the final stint as drivers have to tip toe around conserving their tyres. Compare that to the Bridgestone tyres where fastest laps in the race were only a few tenths to a second off qualifying pace.

But his biggest problem is that he didn't have a proper childhood. He never had a chance to grow up and become his own man before entering F1 and that's left him stabbing around for happiness ever since. Having his father around for the first couple of seasons kept his feet on the ground and kept him focussed, but that strained their relationship to breaking point. Ever since then Lewis seems to have embraced celebrity culture and is trying to seek comfort from the rich and famous, but he really doesn't look happy.

In many ways it's similar to what Jenson went through, initial success led to a playboy lifestyle. Button ultimately turned it around and has now at least shown Lewis what he is missing. I don't think there has ever been a more relaxed and grounded driver in F1 than Jenson and that is also giving him the mental freedom to perform very consistently. That isn't the only way to do it though, most of the other champions throughout time have needed much more focus than that. Think back to the spiritual intensity of a Senna or the single minded pursuit of Schumacher. There's more than one way to approach it.

Hamilton wouldn't necessarily fare any better elsewhere. The tyres would still be the same, the celebrities and hangers on would still be there, he'd just have a crappy car that wouldn't let him perform. He's had the difficult cars, think how he performed in the early 2009 races where he had to battle through from near the back of the grid. He's proven he has the talent, he knows what it's like to drive a car like that, how is sticking him in a non-front running car going to help him in any way? The celeb culture would continue, they'd all just say it was the car stopping him from performing.

I understand where you are coming from and agree that something has to change for Hamilton. But frankly until the pop star babe and celebrity 'super stars' go I don't think Lewis will find the focus he needs to win. The only other hope is that McLaren and / or Pirelli get on top of the tyres and give him something he can attack with.

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raymondu999
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Re: Alonso on Vettel vs Hamilton

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myurr wrote:The reason Ferrari and Red Bull incubate their drivers isn't for the driver's benefit but because they don't want to take a risk with a driver.
Agreed
McLaren took a HUGE risk putting Hamilton straight into the A-team
Disagree. He was a proven talent, at least in the lower formula, and had been testing quite a bit with McLaren. If even there was risk involved - it was calculated. Track record can do a lot to help a potential employee get a job.
how many potentially great drivers have had there careers crushed because of a poor car, or have been flattered by doing well in a poor car only to show no sign of championship winning material when given a great car (think Fisichella for example).
Or Rosberg :P
My own view is that the tyres aren't helping him. They're flattering Vettel and Button to a degree by compromising the attacking drivers style and stopping them from cranking out the lap times. Race pace is four or five seconds off qualifying even in the final stint as drivers have to tip toe around conserving their tyres. Compare that to the Bridgestone tyres where fastest laps in the race were only a few tenths to a second off qualifying pace.
It doesn't really matter now if he would beat Jenson or Sebastian on Bridgestones though, does it? Tyres are but tools. It is part and parcel of any job description to maximise his or her tools. Bridgestone is (for the foreseeable future) gone from F1, and the Pirelli jelly beans are in, and if he wants to win races and titles; he has to adapt.
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