Help need in car physics model

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
Monstrobolaxa
Monstrobolaxa
1
Joined: 28 Dec 2002, 23:36
Location: Covilhã, Portugal (and sometimes in Évora)

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ReubenG....well....N*Crr is friction of 2 objects between each other. This one you can easily find in any physics book....

V*Crr as I see it is the friction of rolling "things" such as bearings...which increases with speed.

The answer to pompelmo's question is yes!

c00ler
c00ler
0
Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 11:05
Location: Russia

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Can you point me pls (ie line number)

Regards

Guest
Guest
0

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Monstro's comments on friction and rolling resistance-
The Crr (Coefficient of rolling resistance) value I am referring to is NOT the coefficient of friction referred to in most physics textbooks. If you want to write Rolling resistance in full vector form then it becomes
Frr=-Crr*V*|N|/|V| or Sgn(V)*Crr*|N|
in order to get the direction vector of the of the rolling resistance correct.

Coefficients such as Cd , Crr, or Mu (Coefficient of friction) are dimensionless - hence Force (newtons) = mu (no units) * Reaction force (newtons) gives consistent units on either side of the equation,
whereas
Rolling resistance (Newtons) = Crr (no units) * velocity (m/s) does NOT give consistent units on either side of the equation.
Part of the point that I was making was that Crr , while being dimensionless, is a function of velocity and tyre pressure.

If you are interested in the rolling resistance of bearings, the SKF catalog has a nice section on it, where it explains that the rolling resistance can be broken into a load dependent, speed independent component and a load independed, speed dependent component. If one does some calculations with typical bearing sizes, loads and speeds, it turns out that the load dependent friction is about 2-3 orders of magnitude greater than the speed dependent friction. So, as with most things involving friction between two solids, NOT aero or hydro drag between a fluid and a body, the reaction force becomes the dominant factor rather than the velocity. Hence my issue with the model.

West
West
0
Joined: 07 Jan 2004, 00:42
Location: San Diego, CA

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How about this?

http://www.miata.net/sport/Physics

Lot's of equations for anything.
Bring back wider rear wings, V10s, and tobacco advertisements

pompelmo
pompelmo
0
Joined: 22 Feb 2004, 16:51
Location: Lucija, Slovenia

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c00ler wrote:Can you point me pls (ie line number)

Regards
in the section "Straight line physics"

pompelmo
pompelmo
0
Joined: 22 Feb 2004, 16:51
Location: Lucija, Slovenia

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Frr=-Crr*V*|N|/|V| or Sgn(V)*Crr*|N|
I do not understand this???
V/|V|=sgn(V)???
i do NOT agree!!

sgn(v) is or 1 or -1 and it is a SCALAR!!!
V/|V| is a normaised VECTOR..
||(v/|v|)||=1 that's right....but it couldn't be negative!
How can lenght be negative?????
In math you MUSN'T cofuse scalars with a vector!!!

c00ler
c00ler
0
Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 11:05
Location: Russia

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Hi pompelmo
I have no ideas
But maybe smeoneelse can help
here is code:
http://www.f1grandprixmanager.com/from_scratch.m

Regards

ReubenG
ReubenG
0
Joined: 21 Apr 2004, 15:31

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mea culpa Pompelmo - I'm not so good at formatting equation in this forum...

I was not very clear about how I wrote out the two forms of the equation. The first one I used
Frr=-Crr*V*|N|/|V|
is in correct vector form. The use of the normalised vector -V/|V| is because the rolling resistance vector must be in the opposite direction to the velocity.

The other form I used was not in a very correct form, as it would give the magnitude of Frr correctly but assumes that the magnitude would be applied in the correct direction. I know it's not entirely correct to worry about signs (which imply direction and hence a vector quantity) when one is just calculating magnitudes.

All that being said thank you for picking up on my dodgy notation - I am quite happy for ppl to correct me where applicable.

Reca
Reca
93
Joined: 21 Dec 2003, 18:22
Location: Monza, Italy

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c00ler wrote: Sometimes ago, one man created a model for me and its worked.
But need to add several parameters there.
Problem is that, this guy has dissapeared somewhere (one year of silence)
Looking at the code I think I know from where that guy got it a couple of years ago ;-)

Anyway, I currently use for tyre rolling resistance the model I found it in a book by ing. Enrico Benzing (he used to make the engine power estimates for Piola’s books) :

rolling resistance = N * (alpha + beta * v^2 + gamma * v^4)

N is obviously the vertical load.
Alpha is a coefficient depending by tarmac and tyre compound, typically : 8 ->14 x 10^-3
Beta is related with the general stiffness of the tyre carcass : -2 -> -3 x 10^-7 [1/(km/h)^2]
Gamma is related with the stiffness of the sidewall : 4.5 -> 11.5 x 10^-10 [1/(km/h)^4)]

To include the model in the code you have just to set the parameters (front and rear separated) and to change the line calculating the instantaneous acceleration a(i) with the following one :

a(i) = (eng_torque * tau(gear))/(M*r) - rho * (v ^2) * CdS / (2*M) - Lf(i)/M * (alpha_f+ beta_f * v^2+gamma_f*v^4) – Lr(i)/M * (alpha_r+ beta_r * v^2+gamma_r*v^4);

c00ler
c00ler
0
Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 11:05
Location: Russia

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Thank you Reca !

Regards

c00ler
c00ler
0
Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 11:05
Location: Russia

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Ok lets create a list of things that need to be added (done things marked by + sign):
1. Tyres
1.1 Tyres condition (+ by Reca)
1.2 Air Pressure
2. Engine
2.1 Revs settings: higher or lower
No idea how this settings can affect, for me more revs more power :)
3. Car
3.1 Aerodynamics
3.1.1 Front wing
3.1.2 Rear wing
3.1.3 something else ?
3.2 Suspension
3.2.1 Dumper
3.2.2 Spring
3.3 Brake Balance
3.4 Gear ratios
3.5 Ride Height (front / rear)

Someone have an ideas ?

Regards

c00ler
c00ler
0
Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 11:05
Location: Russia

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Ah, I forget about it:

3.6 Weigth Balance

Regards