Formula E

[mrluke]

Help me out here, are these testing times on the National Circuit? That would make Formula E 15 seconds slower than the clio cup?

Im very much hoping to be wrong here..

Yes, it is the same.... only that you´re comparing a lap with the track wet and a lap with the track dry....

And you should also take account they´re using VERY hard groved tires

Ah it was just the pictures appear to show a dry track, didn't realise it was wet running, coverage isn't brilliant tbh.

Well that helps a tad but still, really keen on the series just disappointing if they are slower than clios.

[Cam]

Well that helps a tad but still, really keen on the series just disappointing if they are slower than clios.

But can clios do that speed with zero emissions? Or to put it another way, by the time you bolted a full electrics system into a Clio, they would be slower than an FE.

It's going to be important for fans to measure apples for apples. Put a NA v8 in there and you'd have a very different result. But that's not the goal. If fans are already questioning why the slow times, then perhaps the sport isn't doing enough to educate the fan base?

[NathanOlder]

So now the driver line-up seems to be complete, Who do we think will do the Family name proud ? Nicholas or Bruno ?
25 years on, round 2

[flynfrog]

Well that helps a tad but still, really keen on the series just disappointing if they are slower than clios.

But can clios do that speed with zero emissions? Or to put it another way, by the time you bolted a full electrics system into a Clio, they would be slower than an FE.

It's going to be important for fans to measure apples for apples. Put a NA v8 in there and you'd have a very different result. But that's not the goal. If fans are already questioning why the slow times, then perhaps the sport isn't doing enough to educate the fan base?

Zero Emissions? Self charging batteries? Id venture the CLio race teams have lower total emissions than formula E will

[MOWOG]

Here's a series where electric racers are as fast or faster than their piston engine rivals. http://evsr.net/

Keep in mind that in the first season, the motors in FE are limited to 180 hp, rising to 200 hp during short "push to pass" situations.

Actually, 180bhp in race mode, and 270bhp in power mode

http://www.fiaformulae.com/en/guide/car.aspx?page=1334

Too much difference IMO

I admit I am somewhat confused by this. I followed your link and got this information:


Power
Max power (limited): 200kw, equivalent to 270bhp
Race mode (power-saving): 133kw, equivalent to 180bhp
'Push-to-Pass': 67kw
Maximum power will be available during practice and qualifying sessions. During races, power-saving mode will apply with the 'Push-to-Pass' system temporarily allowing maximum power for a limited time.
The amount of energy that can be delivered to the MGU by the RESS is limited to 30kwh. This will be permanently monitored by the FIA.

Can you see why I am confused? The battery, supplied by Williams, is rated at 200 kWh which is equivalent to 270 hp. But it seems that the cars are never allowed to use all that power. The PowerBoost seems to be limited to 30 kWh. So from my reading of the rules, I cannot tell whether the push to pass adds 67 kWh or 33 kWh.

It seems like there is conflicting information being given by the FIA.

Another explanation could be that I simply lack the brain power needed to read and understand the rules.

[Cam]

Well that helps a tad but still, really keen on the series just disappointing if they are slower than clios.

But can clios do that speed with zero emissions? Or to put it another way, by the time you bolted a full electrics system into a Clio, they would be slower than an FE.

It's going to be important for fans to measure apples for apples. Put a NA v8 in there and you'd have a very different result. But that's not the goal. If fans are already questioning why the slow times, then perhaps the sport isn't doing enough to educate the fan base?

Zero Emissions? Self charging batteries? Id venture the CLio race teams have lower total emissions than formula E will

I guess we can all take the literal wording of everything - hang on, I'll just go and see my lawyer.

Yep, $400 bucks later, my lawyer says "Cam, you need to stop being so open to people reading past the words, to focus on the context. If you say 'zero emissions' - well that means no emissions ever, on anything, by anyone, at anytime, in any place".

Apologies. I'll try harder to be more lawyer like.

Obviously there are emissions, everything from production of materials, transporting, waste, what to do with the dead batteries.... the list goes on... if we want to be literal. So, I'll just copy/pasta what FE actually states on the issue. You guys do go and read some of this yourselves, don't you?

One of the most unique aspects of the FIA Formula E Championship is its commitment and promotion of sustainability.
In addition to creating an exciting and competitive racing series, Formula E has two main objectives. The first is to become a framework for research and development around the electric vehicle. Battery life and efficiency of electric engines are two fields in which many global corporations are investing vast resources. Technological breakthroughs in these fields will take the electric car to a different level and Formula E would like to become the testing ground for those advances.

The second is to make people believe in electric cars. One of the biggest issues electric vehicles face is image. Many people think they won't work for them or will be too slow but we want to show everyone what electric cars can really do, through motorsport, and to help shape perceptions of what is cool and exciting.

Of course, Formula E will be operated as a low carbon championship ensuring it reduces its CO2 emissions wherever possible, as well as encouraging its partners to do the same...not to mention all the fans who watch the races!

[MOWOG]

$400 bucks later, my lawyer says

Hell, son. Everyone knows you can't get a lawyer to say so much as "good morning" for $400 these days. Perhaps you meant to say $4,000?

[Cam]

maybe that's my problem - his advice sux

[Cold Fussion]

I guess we can all take the literal wording of everything - hang on, I'll just go and see my lawyer.

Yep, $400 bucks later, my lawyer says "Cam, you need to stop being so open to people reading past the words, to focus on the context. If you say 'zero emissions' - well that means no emissions ever, on anything, by anyone, at anytime, in any place".

Apologies. I'll try harder to be more lawyer like.

Obviously there are emissions, everything from production of materials, transporting, waste, what to do with the dead batteries.... the list goes on... if we want to be literal. So, I'll just copy/pasta what FE actually states on the issue. You guys do go and read some of this yourselves, don't you?

It's quite hard to follow you when you claim there are zero emissions, and then say of course there are emissions?

Also, unlike Formula One, the series has embraced social media. Starting July 1, fans can vote for their favorite drivers. The top three vote getters will be awarded an extra "push to pass" opportunity. It that hokey? Probably. But smart marketing, imho.

It's completely ridiculous. People often complain about all the gimmicks in F1, and this has to be one of the worst ideas implemented into a racing series.

[Cam]

It's quite hard to follow you when you claim there are zero emissions, and then say of course there are emissions?

There's zero (there I go again) obstructions to some (all) of you doing some basic research yourselves. Don't be so receptive to having everything spoon fed - then jump and down when it's not exactly to your taste. I imagine (oops, did it again) this is how promoters feel every time they suggest something new?

It's completely ridiculous. People often complain about all the gimmicks in F1, and this has to be one of the worst ideas implemented into a racing series.

Why is it ridiculous? This isn't F1, so gimmick away. FE has no precedent, it's a blank sheet. A future orientated series that didn't embrace future technologies - would be ridiculous, IMO.

Ultimately, we don't know if it will work or not, but they're on the right track with trying to integrate the audience more - if you want long term participation, you must develop it. Compared to current F1 where we're all told "GFY - have it how we tell you - and no, you can't use a mobile device", it's a breath of fresh air.

I'm looking forward to catching public transport into the city to watch a race, where I can vote on my phone and effect the results there and then, sounds cool.

[Andres125sx]

The great thing about FE, it doesn't need to promote itself as a 'speed' series. It's not. It's about 100% electric racing - however fast that is.

It´s not a "speed" series?

It is. It´s not that fast because it´s first electric single seater competition ever. People always want to compare with ICEs, but ICEs have been evolving for more than 50 years, while electric setups for racing are something completely new, no experience at all with motors, batteries, electronic speed controllers, battery managment units or even wiring.

I disagree. It isn't about speed. Even the website fails to mention 'speed' as a core concept.

The Championship centres around three core values of Energy, Environment and Entertainment and is a fusion of engineering, technology, sport, science, design, music and entertainment - all combining to drive the change towards an electric future.

Stupid discussion here, but this is first phrase from FE website-> Guide to-> Overview (first place you should look at if trying to understand FE)

Formula E is a new FIA single-seater championship and the world's first fully-electric racing series.

Do you know any racing series where speed is not important?

I agree with you they´re promoting the series as a sustainable option to traditional racing, but that´s marketing my friend. That´s the most unique factor of FE, and any marketing expert will tell you you always have to explode what makes you different from the rest. That´s what they´re doing, but speed obviously is a goal too, just that it´s too obvious.... and his first seasson it will not be that great, so they´re smart trying to point people to other characteristics of FE

Marketing and main goal are different things

[Andres125sx]

Help me out here, are these testing times on the National Circuit? That would make Formula E 15 seconds slower than the clio cup?

Im very much hoping to be wrong here..

Yes, it is the same.... only that you´re comparing a lap with the track wet and a lap with the track dry....

And you should also take account they´re using VERY hard groved tires

Ah it was just the pictures appear to show a dry track, didn't realise it was wet running, coverage isn't brilliant tbh.

Well that helps a tad but still, really keen on the series just disappointing if they are slower than clios.

Not a tad.

A wet track makes you slower always, even when you use specific wet tires.... but FE doesn´t have wet tires, they use the same groved tires they use when the track is dry. That means they´re extremely hard for wet use, so the difference in the rain is much higher than any other series

That´s to avoid pit-stop entries even if it start raining. All the rules have been developed to improve competitiveness. For example, first line of design specs at FE website states:

Aerodynamics optimized to facilitate overtaking

These rules make the cars slowers than they could be, but at the same time the competition will be much better.

[andylaurence]

I admit I am somewhat confused by this. I followed your link and got this information:

Power
Max power (limited): 200kw, equivalent to 270bhp
Race mode (power-saving): 133kw, equivalent to 180bhp
'Push-to-Pass': 67kw
Maximum power will be available during practice and qualifying sessions. During races, power-saving mode will apply with the 'Push-to-Pass' system temporarily allowing maximum power for a limited time.
The amount of energy that can be delivered to the MGU by the RESS is limited to 30kwh. This will be permanently monitored by the FIA.

Can you see why I am confused? The battery, supplied by Williams, is rated at 200 kWh which is equivalent to 270 hp. But it seems that the cars are never allowed to use all that power. The PowerBoost seems to be limited to 30 kWh. So from my reading of the rules, I cannot tell whether the push to pass adds 67 kWh or 33 kWh.

It seems like there is conflicting information being given by the FIA.

Another explanation could be that I simply lack the brain power needed to read and understand the rules.

What you're missing is the units. KWh is a measurement of the energy storage capacity. Equivalent to the size of the fuel tank. That 30KWh is saying that the battery will be discharged if it dispenses 30KW for an hour. It'll also be discharged by 60KW for half an hour or 120KW for 15 minutes. The power output is in KW, which is roughly equivalent to 0.75bhp (pedants, need not reply). So, the car can run at 133KW (180bhp) maximum power in race mode, but if the throttle was wide open that whole time, the battery would be dead in about 13.5 minutes. In qualifying (or push-to-pass) mode, maximum power is 200KW (270bhp), but running at full throttle would discharge the battery in just 9 minutes. Thus, push-to-pass is worth 67KW (90bhp).

Do you know any racing series where speed is not important?

Seriously? Where did all the pedants come from? Do I really need to spell this out? Absolute speed is unimportant in many series. Relative speed is the key factor. You win a race whether you're 0.1mph faster or 100mph faster. The common factor is faster, thus absolute speed is not important.

[Andres125sx]

Well that helps a tad but still, really keen on the series just disappointing if they are slower than clios.

But can clios do that speed with zero emissions? Or to put it another way, by the time you bolted a full electrics system into a Clio, they would be slower than an FE.

It's going to be important for fans to measure apples for apples. Put a NA v8 in there and you'd have a very different result. But that's not the goal. If fans are already questioning why the slow times, then perhaps the sport isn't doing enough to educate the fan base?

Zero Emissions? Self charging batteries? Id venture the CLio race teams have lower total emissions than formula E will

If you use the usual demagogia comparing the final use of petrol engines with the complete process of electric cars, then maybe... or maybe not even so (if they use renewable energies to charge batteries for example, as manufacturing pollutes in both cases)

But if you do a fair comparison, then no way

[Andres125sx]

Do you know any racing series where speed is not important?

Seriously? Where did all the pedants come from? Do I really need to spell this out? Absolute speed is unimportant in many series. Relative speed is the key factor. You win a race whether you're 0.1mph faster or 100mph faster. The common factor is faster, thus absolute speed is not important.

Semantics?

You could say the same with F1, as they don´t use ground effects, blown diffusers, active wings, intelligent suspensions, unlimited engines, and so on...

Obviously it´s relative speed, any series is limited by rules, all of them could be much quicker than they are