Formula E

Please discuss here all your remarks and pose your questions about all racing series, except Formula One. Both technical and other questions about GP2, Touring cars, IRL, LMS, ...
noname
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Re: Formula E

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P.S. wrote:For example an aktuell F1 engine is so inefficient in fuel consumtion
When I see i.e. BSFC of F1 engine inefficient is not the word I have in mind.

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P.S.
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sorry for interrupting this thread...

The F1 engine now is very poor in converting petrol in to shaft power. The development target is too get the max shaft power from 2,4 litres, 4-stroke, 8 zylindres, etc.. According to the rules, they are efficient. But as said those engines have very little intersections with the consumer world.

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P.S.
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Sorry, first answer is not a proper reply. My statement that BSFC from a F1 is bad depends on comparison and can be seen from many angles. But I stay with it, its the rules foult if you don´t get consumer world friendly technical output.

autogyro
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P.S. wrote:Sorry, first answer is not a proper reply. My statement that BSFC from a F1 is bad depends on comparison and can be seen from many angles. But I stay with it, its the rules foult if you don´t get consumer world friendly technical output.
The trouble with F1 is that as far as ICE is concerned, it has all been done before and apart from hugely expensive non relevent to road vehicle development, there is no room left for regulation that could open up real development.
Aero is the illusion used to convince the viewer that F1 is the peak of technology.
The truth is it is only the peak of irelevent aero downforce technology and that is all.

Formula E has all the scope for NEW development possible so long as the regulations remain focused that way.

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Cam
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That's a nice reply autogyro and I agree with your sentiment. F1 has lost a lot it's real development status, which is why I'm eagerly awaiting Formula E. Really nice regs open to all sorts of interpretation will result in many different approaches, so we're not just seeing 2 almost identical cars racing (spec series) which is what F1 has basically become.

It has lots to offer: audience see new technology, innovation, different cars, strategy, true evolution unfolding before eyes, manufacturers have new revenue streams, mass appeal for relevant consumer road tech, teams and drivers - new revenue streams, new tech to master, new category to master, new sponsorships.

Formular E will show todays audience what F1 was back when radical cars came onto the grid - that is highly watchable.

I'd almost go out on a limb and make the call now that Formula E will become the preeminent Motorsport series in the years to come. Anyone who is anyone will want to make a name, set the standards and have their name on the records list first.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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Pierce89
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Cam wrote:That's a nice reply autogyro and I agree with your sentiment. F1 has lost a lot it's real development status, which is why I'm eagerly awaiting Formula E. Really nice regs open to all sorts of interpretation will result in many different approaches, so we're not just seeing 2 almost identical cars racing (spec series) which is what F1 has basically become.

It has lots to offer: audience see new technology, innovation, different cars, strategy, true evolution unfolding before eyes, manufacturers have new revenue streams, mass appeal for relevant consumer road tech, teams and drivers - new revenue streams, new tech to master, new category to master, new sponsorships.

Formular E will show todays audience what F1 was back when radical cars came onto the grid - that is highly watchable.

I'd almost go out on a limb and make the call now that Formula E will become the preeminent Motorsport series in the years to come. Anyone who is anyone will want to make a name, set the standards and have their name on the records list first.
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but the viewers will have to be there BEFORE the manufacturers decide its worthwhile. Which, In my view, is a bit of a sticking point because viewers will want to see the big boys racing BEFORE they decide its worthwhile. I also believe that, were we to see any true innovation, the FIA would quickly move to "reign in costs", besides, unless I'm mistaken, they're required to use Lithium batteries, which will stifle innovation.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

Tommy Cookers
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F1 has avoided 'efficiency/'road relevance' ... WHY ?? (fuel RATE limiting as per 2014 F1 should have been in F1 5 years ago)

2014 F1 is all about E/RR (TERS and super-advanced DI to enable microsecond combustion management, even HCCI)

Formula E will (like current F1) choose not to reward energy efficiency (battery changing is 'unlimited fuel')

2014 F1 will have 3 engine suppliers (all from the mainland of Europe), is this the plan for Formula E ?

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Cam
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Pierce89 wrote:
Cam wrote:That's a nice reply autogyro and I agree with your sentiment. F1 has lost a lot it's real development status, which is why I'm eagerly awaiting Formula E. Really nice regs open to all sorts of interpretation will result in many different approaches, so we're not just seeing 2 almost identical cars racing (spec series) which is what F1 has basically become.

It has lots to offer: audience see new technology, innovation, different cars, strategy, true evolution unfolding before eyes, manufacturers have new revenue streams, mass appeal for relevant consumer road tech, teams and drivers - new revenue streams, new tech to master, new category to master, new sponsorships.

Formular E will show todays audience what F1 was back when radical cars came onto the grid - that is highly watchable.

I'd almost go out on a limb and make the call now that Formula E will become the preeminent Motorsport series in the years to come. Anyone who is anyone will want to make a name, set the standards and have their name on the records list first.
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but the viewers will have to be there BEFORE the manufacturers decide its worthwhile. Which, In my view, is a bit of a sticking point because viewers will want to see the big boys racing BEFORE they decide its worthwhile. I also believe that, were we to see any true innovation, the FIA would quickly move to "reign in costs", besides, unless I'm mistaken, they're required to use Lithium batteries, which will stifle innovation.
The original racers weren't 'big boys' they were enthusiasts that built their own gear and went racing. The throngs loved it. They could relate and could dream about building one in their own garage. Formula E could be no different.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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lizardfolk
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I used to hate the Formula E idea... but... a dude called Leo Parente basically changed my mind within just a few segments of his Shakedown racing webshow

Anyone who's skeptical about electric cars or alternative fuel in racing... should watch these short segments (BTW ignore the titles as the segments are segues and not the overall topic of the video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QMzSwHQHco#t=3m18s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZIqdRidlPA#t=4m43s

I personally believe that anyone who listens to these two arguments for alternate fuel racing and still believes that racing will be better off with petrol technology aren't really using their brains... just my 2 cents

Tommy Cookers
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97% of the world's electricity (discounting nuclear) comes from high carbon sources
doesn't this mean that 97% of electric cars are not 'green' ?

does Mr Parente know this ?

gato azul
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Tommy Cookers wrote:97% of the world's electricity (discounting nuclear) comes from high carbon sources
doesn't this mean that 97% of electric cars are not 'green' ?

does Mr Parente know this ?
maybe you have your numbers the wrong way round.
Looks closer to 79% to me, but hey why bother with facts.

Why does racing need to be "green" in the first place?

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lizardfolk
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Tommy Cookers wrote:97% of the world's electricity (discounting nuclear) comes from high carbon sources
doesn't this mean that 97% of electric cars are not 'green' ?

does Mr Parente know this ?
Excluding Gazo's correction whether this is true or not doesnt automatically means that the cars have to be within the 79% majority
gato azul wrote:
Why does racing need to be "green" in the first place?
Because racing needs to be seen as relevant? After all we're not just a blood sport who's only contribution to society and the planet is just wasting energy... right? I mean we're not NASCAR here (which only started using fuel injection like last year btw LOL). Plus we might reach peak oil in the near future (by near I mean anywhere from 50-200 years from now). I think with the possibility of peak oil racing should start being green anyway

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flynfrog
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Odds are we will reach peak rare earth metals faster than we will hit peak oil. Doesn't this mean that a petrol fired race series is greener? What about rocket cars fired with AP fuel no oil burnt there. Green doesn't have to mean electric just as electric doesn't meant its green. A truly green series you would drive your race car to the track as the car hauler uses more fuel than the race car ever will.

I find the series interesting. Electric racing is fun and challenging. It does not share the same constraints as a fuel unlimited series. I wouldn't say its better or worse its just different.

gato azul
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lizardfolk wrote: Because racing needs to be seen as relevant? After all we're not just a blood sport who's only contribution to society and the planet is just wasting energy... right? I mean we're not NASCAR here (which only started using fuel injection like last year btw LOL). Plus we might reach peak oil in the near future (by near I mean anywhere from 50-200 years from now). I think with the possibility of peak oil racing should start being green anyway
Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but I think centering a discussion about a possible electric racing series around the "green" effect is jumping a bit short.
We may reach all sort of things in the near future, if the Incas and Mayas got it right, it will not matter all that much anyway - who knows. Time will tell.

I just think, that any discussion about the pro and cons of an race series with electric cars should not exclusively hinge around the "is it/it is green(er)" argument.
Many sports don't add anything to the advancement of society and humankind in general, but yet nobody questions their Raison d’être on a constant basis and demands changes or that they are being banned.
It seems to be sufficient, that people enjoy to watching and/or participating in them.
Why do we need to hold (motor) racing to a different standard?

The argument that racing needs to be relevant to automotive development is bogus.
If it is, fine it's an added benefit, but as long as the operational profiles of both vehicles are on polar opposite ends of the scale - any crossover effect will be minimal.
Nobody (should) drive(s) their street car in a way a race car is driven/should be driven, so what's the point.
It's like saying that a fighter jet should be relevant to civil aircraft development - yes their is/can be some overlap, but it's minimal and nobody will go and design or spec a fighter jet thinking "ah maybe we should do this, because it will be useful for civil aviation".

If you would like to see real/tangible advancements in EV development for daily use, racing is not the way to go.
Racing can be used as a marketing tool to help shape consumer perception and maybe increase the "cool factor"/brand exposure, but that's as good as it will get.
But let's not confuse/mingle "public perception shaping" with engineering matters.

Scania
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Tommy Cookers wrote:97% of the world's electricity (discounting nuclear) comes from high carbon sources
doesn't this mean that 97% of electric cars are not 'green' ?

does Mr Parente know this ?
even you are using "high carbon sources" electric, it's still lower then the road vehicle