Overtaking in 2012: statistics and analysis

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Nando
Nando
2
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:30 am

Re: Overtaking in 2012: statistics and analysis

Post

mnmracer wrote:Care to substantiate how Red Bull is a faster car on starts?
It´s not just starts, it´s lap 1 data.
Care to substantiate how red bull is a slower car on starts? (bar Webber´s problems which Vettel does not have)

Include the first lap in your statistics and we would get a better view on overtakes.
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."

mnmracer
mnmracer
-26
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:41 pm

Re: Overtaking in 2012: statistics and analysis

Post

Nando wrote:Also if they would have been included in page 1 post the results would be quite different with Alonso probably taking the top step.
And rightfully so as we have seen his magic on lap 1.
Only if we assume that Vettel and Webber have not overtaken a single driver in lap 1 ;)
Singapore comes to mind for Vettel, Brazil comes to mind for Webber, so no.

Nando
Nando
2
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:30 am

Re: Overtaking in 2012: statistics and analysis

Post

ok so only some overtakes pass the mnmracer´s analysis. Just the "right" ones i see.
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."

mbvinnie
mbvinnie
0
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:01 am

Re: Overtaking in 2012: statistics and analysis

Post

Nando wrote:
mnmracer wrote:Care to substantiate how Red Bull is a faster car on starts?
It´s not just starts, it´s lap 1 data.
Care to substantiate how red bull is a slower car on starts? (bar Webber´s problems which Vettel does not have)

Include the first lap in your statistics and we would get a better view on overtakes.
Is it possible to include Lap 1 passes excluding starts?
I agree that Lap 1 passes should probably be included, but I don't agree that start (launch) passes are valid as there is no real 'pass'. Can we only include Lap 1 passes after turn 1? And excluding any that are due to incident/retirement?

NB: I think start line performance is something different, though I would not know how to analyze that any further in terms of driver vs car performance. I would be interested to hear any thoughts on why Ferrari seems to have it sorted so well...gearing? KERS usage? Traction?

mnmracer
mnmracer
-26
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:41 pm

Re: Overtaking in 2012: statistics and analysis

Post

Nando wrote:
mnmracer wrote:Care to substantiate how Red Bull is a faster car on starts?
It´s not just starts, it´s lap 1 data.
Care to substantiate how red bull is a slower car on starts? (bar Webber´s problems which Vettel does not have)
So you rather believe it is a coincidence that all the teams are nicely grouped together, with the Ferrari's far ahead of the McLarens, who in turn are far ahead of the Red Bull's?
Nando wrote:Include the first lap in your statistics and we would get a better view on overtakes.
Provide me with the data and I will ;)

Nando
Nando
2
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:30 am

Re: Overtaking in 2012: statistics and analysis

Post

of course starts should be included. it´s like saying no overtakes where the other guy got a better exit out of a corner should count as well.
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."

Nando
Nando
2
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:30 am

Re: Overtaking in 2012: statistics and analysis

Post

mnmracer wrote:So you rather believe it is a coincidence that all the teams are nicely grouped together, with the Ferrari's far ahead of the McLarens, who in turn are far ahead of the Red Bull's?
Yes, and please provide evidence for the "fact" that the Red Bull is bad at starts.

mnmracer wrote:Provide me with the data and I will ;)
I just did.

plus and minus leads to a total number which was posted together with the average.
if you don´t believe me it´s on F1Fanatic statistics section,
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."

mnmracer
mnmracer
-26
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:41 pm

Re: Overtaking in 2012: statistics and analysis

Post

For the record btw, Pirelli's overtaking statistics seem to factor in the same circumstances.

Nando
Nando
2
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:30 am

Re: Overtaking in 2012: statistics and analysis

Post

mnmracer wrote:For the record btw, Pirelli's overtaking statistics seem to factor in the same circumstances.
If it follows the same statistics (or how you have counted) then it would be odd if it didn´t don´t you think?
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."

mnmracer
mnmracer
-26
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:41 pm

Re: Overtaking in 2012: statistics and analysis

Post

/
Nando wrote:
mnmracer wrote:For the record btw, Pirelli's overtaking statistics seem to factor in the same circumstances.
If it follows the same statistics (or how you have counted) then it would be odd if it didn´t don´t you think?
I might as well be talking to a wall...

Did you, or did you not, bother to read that the data is not compiled by me?
So do you, or do you not, choose to wilfully ignore what is presented to you just so you can bitch about it?

If Pirelli considers the circumstances during starts and lap 1 to be too extra-ordinary to count, who are you to bitch about it?

Nando
Nando
2
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:30 am

Re: Overtaking in 2012: statistics and analysis

Post

Pirelli is a tire company, not an overtaking company. Their opinion is as valid as anyone else´s.

Could you please include lap 1 overtakes. Not all of them happen at the start.
My opinion is that you get a much better view on overtakes by including ALL of them except maybe lappers (blue flags) or people in pits etc.

It´s not important who wrote the statistics, i speak to you because you created the thread and you said you would include those overtakes if you got the data, which you did.

You really don´t have to though if you don´t want to. Just thought it would be interesting if you did.
Last edited by Nando on Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."

mbvinnie
mbvinnie
0
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:01 am

Re: Overtaking in 2012: statistics and analysis

Post

Nando wrote:of course starts should be included. it´s like saying no overtakes where the other guy got a better exit out of a corner should count as well.
I strongly believe that starts are valid as a separate point of comparison, and that they would 'muddy' the analysis of passing performance. My opinion is that it is much more down to how well your car launches as opposed to driver ability.
Positioning your car into the 1st corner is driver ability, but also would be very noisy (due to the randomness involved) and very difficult to isolate from the launch.

I think most neutral observers would agree that Felipe and Fernando made up a lot or places from the launch and that the Red Bull often struggled to get off the line as well this year. As evidenced by the statistics.
I am not sure that is 'passing ability'. However I agree that once all cars are moving (after turn 1) a pass becomes valid for the purpose of overtaking ability.

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: Overtaking in 2012: statistics and analysis

Post

mnmracer wrote:The funny thing with you is that you are always ready to dismiss anything that doesn't fit your world view, yet you are never ready to substantiate your claims.

"I can't say why it's wrong, or how it could be better, I just know it's wrong."

It reminds me of how little children discuss: na-uh! why not? because!
Only a [insert preferred pejorative epithet here] would think it's even possible that something like this can be objectively substantiated in the manner you've chosen. Yet, you went ahead and did it anyway. So, naturally, the burden of proof falls on you to make it stick.

In other words, I don't have to substantiate anything, because I'm not the one who used highly questionable criteria to support a highly dubious notion. It's on you to explain how and why the raw data is both subjective and incomplete; why first-lap overtakes are omitted; why variable race strategies, car/team performance, starting positions, penalties, etc. have not been taken into account.

You laid this egg, not me.

Nando
Nando
2
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:30 am

Re: Overtaking in 2012: statistics and analysis

Post

mbvinnie wrote:I strongly believe that starts are valid as a separate point of comparison, and that they would 'muddy' the analysis of passing performance. My opinion is that it is much more down to how well your car launches as opposed to driver ability.
Positioning your car into the 1st corner is driver ability, but also would be very noisy (due to the randomness involved) and very difficult to isolate from the launch.
Yea it´s a bit like DRS..............

Pushing a button that will definitely make sure you get past is a bit more artificial then a person having to modulate a clutch in two stages and modulate a throttle and modulate wheel spin.

And again, not all overtakes happen at the start. It´s not Start-overtakes, it´s LAP 1 overtakes.
Anything from 4km to 7km. not just 300 meters to T1.
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!

"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."

mbvinnie
mbvinnie
0
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:01 am

Re: Overtaking in 2012: statistics and analysis

Post

Nando wrote:Pirelli is a tire company, not an overtaking company. Their opinion is as valid as anyone else´s.

Could you please include lap 1 overtakes. Not all of them happen at the start.
My opinion is that you get a much better view on overtakes by including ALL of them except maybe lappers (blue flags) or people in pits etc.

It´s not important who wrote the statistics, i speak to you because you created the thread and you said you would include those overtakes if you got the data, which you did.

You really don´t have to though if you don´t want to. Just thought it would be interesting if you did.
To be fair to mnmracer, he has now received criticism for not including absolutely everything, and for not delving deeper to remove invalid passes. You can't have it both ways.

Most previous analysis of passing ability I have read in previous years has excluded 1st lap passes or looked at them separately.

My view is that you (Nando and mnmracer) are both clearly biased in favour of VET and ALO respectively and it is not helping the thread.