Honda returns to F1 in 2015

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turbof1
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Very interesting article. Especially the part about honda sniffing out mercedes' engine next year. Mclaren might be facing an ultimatum: extending the contract to or beyond 2015, or this year would be last one that mclaren drives a mercedes engine.

I am pretty sure too that of Honda enters f1 again, that they would design their engine around mclaren's philosophy. So mclaren would be facing a much better deal in 2015

Marketing-wise, Honda could exploit the mclaren-honda fame from the 80's.

Perhaps Honda could enter in 2014 too? Cosworth is not giving any sign of continueing, leaving marussia without an engine. Marussia actually uses Mclaren tech to develop their car, so they would be perfect as a testing team. Mclaren and honda would then have a full season of data.
#AeroFrodo

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dren
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I'm guessing Honda is being pushed hard for a 2014 entry.
Honda!

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WhiteBlue
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turbof1 wrote:Mclaren might be facing an ultimatum: extending the contract to or beyond 2015, or this year would be last one that mclaren drives a mercedes engine.
That is clearly not the case. McLaren have a contract for 2015 to be an optional customer. This clearly excludes an ultimatum. There are probably options for Merc as well, but non supply is very unlikely as an option. It would collide with McLaren's right to be customer.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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turbof1
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An option still requires both parties have to agree. But you are right, partially atleast. Mercedes will make big demands concerning safeguarding the engines from Honda. It will be a question how far this goes and what mclaren is willing to accept. Telemetry data from the engine for example will be something Honda definitely will want, and something that Mercedes will not want to give, while it is in the hands of mclaren. Even if mclaren signs not to hand it over, it will be near impossible to prove if they still did.
#AeroFrodo

waynes
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hope Mclaren sign on with Honda and revert to the old red and white scheme

[-o<

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WhiteBlue
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turbof1 wrote:An option still requires both parties have to agree. ....
It appears that you did not understand the what an options means in the context of contractual and legal work. In my understanding it means that one party can exercise a right of choice at a given time that the other party must accept without further negotiating room. So an option is conditional to the the approval of one side only. In this case the active side would be McLaren. At least that is my understanding and I have done some formal learning on the issue. Mercedes' options are unknown at this time but I'm confident they do not include a negation of McLaren's option. I could imagine that Merc reserved a right to terminate supply under certain conditions but those conditions cannot be mirror imaging McLarens option.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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turbof1
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Depending on how I translate it back to my native language (I could have pulled it out of its context), it means that some aspects and conditions of the extra possible term are already down on paper. Basicilly said, if both parties want to continue, it'll have to be under those conditions. I could be wrong about it, but so do you; we don't really know what the contract states.

Aren't you using (part of) the description for a put/pull option to a complex contractual situation? With put/pull options the buyer/seller indeed is obligated sell/buy if the seller/buyer wishes so, but those are very simple situations.
Last edited by turbof1 on 08 Mar 2013, 00:47, edited 1 time in total.
#AeroFrodo

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Cam
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I would suggest that any contract with an option would have a caveat. Merc, or any critical component supplier, would have some protection at times of contracts ending. Just look at the 'gardening leave' staff get when they leave - and I'm sure they all had options.
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ESPImperium
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McLaren had lots of rumors at the end of 2012 that Vodaphone would leave this year, however they have stayed, reducing their exposure from €60m down to €40m, however that have GSK onboard now with a €55m exposure. However there is about 4 or 5 'Mexican/South American' brands due to appear this year for about a estimated combined fee of €50m.

Mercedes want €40m to cancel their deal with McLaren before the start of 2015. I suggest that this deal will be done before the end of the 2013 will be the end of the Mercedes and Mclaren marrage. Its going to be a messy devorce, but whoever gets the CDs is anybodys guess. Also the relationship between Mobil1 and Mercedes isnt as great as it once was as Mercedes are using Petronas for customer engines. Mobil1 are keeping the relatiionship cordial & professional. Mobil1 are now only supporting McLaren.

Ill propose that Honda will be back in 2014, with probably two teams, Im looking at Mclaren and Williams or Lotus. My reasoning will become clear.

Renault are looking at no more than 5 teams, but 4 teams would be ideal. Red Bull will be their works team, Caterham have the Alpine road car deal and will be paying a half rate for their engines, it looks like Toro Rosso will pick up them as well, both Caterham and Toro Rosso will gain the Red Bull gearbox as well. This looks like either Williams or Lotus will be left in the cold.

Ferrari will have Scuderia as the works team with Sauber and probably now Marussia as the third team, both with the Ferrari rear end. Sauber will pay top money for their engine, but Marussia will most probably have a reduction on their engine if Ferrari need to keep Jules Bianchi warm, as its also another car that that can be used to slow down a Bull or another title challenger if needed.

As for Mercedes, its looking like it will be Mercedes AMG and Force India who will use their engine now. However the reason may not be fully clear for a while, probably down to money.

As for Williams and Lotus, both liveries have a history with Honda at one point in their life. Lotus nee Renault i think will stay with Renault as they long term ties to Renault power since 1995, even the Supertec years were rebadged Renaults, and i think this will remain unbroken, however they will have to pay the Renault estimated €20m for the RS34-2014 power plant, ERS and support team an increase from €8m this year. As for Williams, theres also a more romantic image there with WIlliams and Honda, id also suggest that Cannon may even get back on board as well with plenty of other companies, Mobil1 will probably come as well as fuel/lubricants supplier as well.

Id suggest that Vodaphone McLaren Honda will be back in 2014 for the reasons that McLaren can ditch the silver and go with a new livery, Honda can gain access to Perez and the South American market, also get back with Button who was massivly popular in Japan, more popular than Taku Sato some said. It also gains McLaren access to the Japaneese market for marketing too for their road car devision.

Williams will most likley go with Honda as Honda will be too romantic for them, they will posibly have a quick Fin at the wheel of one car and a fast South Amercan or a quick Brit as well. Honda will need a second team to take engines, and its all about the image as well. Honda will do this for their car sales, the teams will do it for romantic reasons.

This is the reason Honda will be back; the romantic image for their car sales:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiBX8MkFkd4[/youtube]

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Cam
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A clean straight split is what everyone will want. When McLaren split with Hamilton, McLaren also lost the beloved and faithfull dog - which hurts. It'll be keen to man up or risk being seen as a soft touch.

Whether or not Honda is ready for 2014 is another story. The last thing they need is to rush in and see failing engines with turbo pieces strewn all over the main straight and poor performance. That said, most engine suppliers run that risk, so if Honda hold out until 2015, they run the risk of loosing valuable track time to develop further. What to do?

A common sense approach would be a 'soft launch' for Honda, say with Marussia. Maybe even un-brand the engines. Honda gets a nice PR story helping the underdog, while saving face if it all goes pear shaped. That's 12 months extra to develop their main engine on the test bed, 12 months developing with track time and 12 months peering into the Mercs donk.

Honda are in the box seat here and I doubt they'll be pushed one way or the other. One customers cash for a F1 engine as opposed to a misfired global branding exercise - is a no brainer to have all your ducks lined up before jumping into anything.

After all, Honda may not be coming in at all.......
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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Clew
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Not trying to expand the rumor...but...what about Volkswagen?
:-k
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Turbo
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I am really looking forward to 2014. I love the Turbo era and I hope Honda and Mclaren get together again.

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FoxHound
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Cam wrote:and 12 months peering into the Mercs donk.
Mercedes have staff at McLaren who assist with engine integration and installation at every gp so I am told.
I doubt very much Mercedes would want McLaren's prying eyes over it's Turbo unit. And there are ways with said staff to make that happen.
Regardless of this, there is also no engine freeze for 2 years is there not?

Also, we have had Whitmarsh coming out on Sky sports saying that Mercedes power is a definite for McLaren until the end of 2015.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula-1 ... ms-1746738

http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/new ... es-engines
JET set

Raptor22
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Just a caveat on the suggestion that ExxonMobil Lubricants are unhappy with Mercedes using Petronas; Petronas Lubricants use a lot of Mobil technology, Infineum additives (as well as BASF) and PAO base oils (Mobil patented). Mobils exposure was not handicapped through Mercedes engines in FI and Mercedes since neither team were terribly successfull compared to McLaren.
It would actually suit Mobil to have their technology used under licence rather then them have to increase their lab blend size to accomodate more teams.
Its a similar scenario with Ferrari support by Shell. Shell provides lab blended and tweaked products for the Ferrari team but the Ferrari customer teams get a generic lab blend.
Shell does not get terribly upset about someone elses Lubricant brand on the car since they're not looking for exposure through that avenue, is just a technical services agreement

Anon123
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Clew wrote:Not trying to expand the rumor...but...what about Volkswagen?
:-k
I hope not, if they produced an F1 equivalent to the XL1 then every team without a VW power unit would be doomed. :)