Carbon nanotubes tires extremely sticky and longlasting?

[Jersey Tom]

Will F1 lead the development of carbon nanotube tires?

Nope. Technology for the most part is not developed in F1.

Would these tires be extremely sticky and longlasting compared to regular f1 tires?

I can't see why that would be the case.

[flynfrog]

Wb your arguments for it come along too easy for me.
It is the same as people said asbestos is save, or nuclear power is save. There are still countries (Kanada) which don’t want to know anything about the danger of asbestos.
Yes these nanotubes might be save as long as they are in their matrix but what happens in case of an accident, or when there is a fire, or when a part has to be grinded, cutted, or during manufacturing in general, or recycling of used parts???
We should be very careful in the use of such materials. They should only be used for essential applications and only when no other alternative exists.
Definitely not in motorsports. I completely support when the FIA bans such materials.

I would not be surprised when it once comes out that the carbon dust generated in a crash is a health threat as well. It might be worth then considering a revival for aluminium or steel honeycomb crash structures.

the data for carbon fiber exposure has been around for a while. Its no worse than fiberglass dust. The amount of dust produced in a crash is pretty negligible most of it is going to be larger pieces and shards. Very little dust compared to grinding or cutting. In a crash you are probably in more danger from the fuel or oil. And that doesn't come close to being hit by another car or burning your self. But back on topic or lack there of.....

[mep]

Its no worse than fiberglass dust.

I include fiberglass dust as potentially hazardous too. I definitely don't want to inhale small fibre particles of that either. The problem is you will only know after 30years if it causes lung cancer when you inhale it and then you can’t do anything against it anymore. So don’t play down these risks just because you don’t see them as easily as you see a fire.

[flynfrog]

Its no worse than fiberglass dust.

I include fiberglass dust as potentially hazardous too. I definitely don't want to inhale small fibre particles of that either. The problem is you will only know after 30years if it causes lung cancer when you inhale it and then you can’t do anything against it anymore. So don’t play down these risks just because you don’t see them as easily as you see a fire.

You are welcome to consider it hazardous. There are plenty of studies out there that say it is dangerous in large quantities and repeated daily exposure. The amount produced in a crash wont even require a dust mask. Its in a well ventilated area (outside) its not producing much fine particles that will remain airborn for long. I would have to pull up the limits but I think blasting sand aluminum oxide is worse than both carbon and glass. I am not trying to play down the risks, part of my job includes building safe work cells for the composites industry most of the fears you have are not backed up by data.

[flynfrog]

Graphite/Carbon
Graphite (commonly called "carbon") fiber

Code: Select all

Contains no ingredients now known to be hazardous by OSHA. 
The normal cutting of the fiber, either with scissors or razor blade
is suspected of generating small amounts of possibly respirable fibers.
We believe that such fiber cutting should be done in a ventilated hood
facility.

Potential Health Effects:

Eye: Dust may cause eye irritation
Skin Contact: Dust may cause skin irritation.
Skin Absorption: Not expected to be a major route of entry.
Ingestion: Not known
Inhalation: Small graphite fibers or dust are suspected as being possible inhalation hazards.
Chronic effects: A review of the literature does not show obvious long term hazard.
Carcinogenicty: No component known to be present in this product and is at > 0.1% is presently listed as a carcinogen by IARC or OSHA unless other wise noted.

Routes of exposure:
Inhalation
Permissible exposure:
15 MCCPF OSHA TWA, 10 mg/m3 ACGIH TWA (Total Dust)

CIRCLA Hazard Ratings:
Toxicity: 1 Ingnitgability: 0 Reactivity: 0 Persistence: 3

Toxicological Information:
Graphite causes benign pneumoconiosis (graphitosis). Symptoms of
pneumoconiosis from graphite exposure are dypsnea, coughing, black sputum,
bronchitis, ventricular hypertropy and impairment of pulmonary function.
X-rays will show progressive nodulation of the lungs. The theshold limit
value was set in conformity with the limit for free crystalline silica,
which may be present in graphite.

Incompatibilies:
Strong oxidizers,fluorine, peroxides

Route of entry: Inhalation, Skin or eye contact.
Target organs: Lungs, Cardiovascular system.

Symptoms:
Coughing, forceful expiration. Dyspnea, difficulty in breathing.
Black sputum, black colored expectorate. Bronchitis, inflamed bronchial
mucous membranes, pulmonary fibrosis, fibrous tissue involving lungs.
Pneumoconiosis, degenerative respiratory disease.

First Aid Measures
Eyes: In case of contact, immediately flush eyes with copious amounts of
flowing water for at least 15 minutes, retracting eye lids often.
Get medical attention immediately. Contact lenses should not be
worn when working with this product.

Skin: Wash skin thoroughly with mild soap and water. Flush with luke warm
water for 15 minutes. 

Inhalation: If large amounts of the dust are inhaled, move the exposed
person to fresh air at once. If symptoms persist contact
physician.

Ingestion: Not known

Storage and handling:
Store in the plastic bags in which the product is shipped, tightly sealed.



Exposure Controls and Personal Protection
Personal Protective Equipment (PPE):

Eye/Face Protection:
ANSI 87.1 approved safety glasses with side shield when sharpening these
rods, either with razor blade or carbon rod sharpener or plain wood file.

Skin Protection:
No particular protection needed when handling this material on an
occasional basis. For converting bulk rolls of the fiber into smaller
packs, we recommend the wearing of some kind of gloves, for example,
latex gloves.

Respiratory Protection:
For the occasional cutting of a fiber, special protection is not
needed, provided it is done in a chemical fume hood with exhaust.

Other: None known

[Lycoming]

There are still countries (Kanada) which don’t want to know anything about the danger of asbestos.

wut.

That may have been true back when the health risks of asbestos exposure were beginning to come to light and the asbestos industry in Quebec tried to wave it off, but asbestos is no longer used in new buildings and is being removed from old ones. The dangers of asbestos exposure are widely acknowledged in Canada nowadays. Has been for well over a decade.

Its no worse than fiberglass dust.

Not that fibreglass dust is particularly good to have in your lungs.

Graphite/Carbon
Graphite (commonly called "carbon") fiber

...

That's for dry carbon fibre fabric, correct? What about the resin?

[flynfrog]

There are still countries (Kanada) which don’t want to know anything about the danger of asbestos.

wut.

That may have been true back when the health risks of asbestos exposure were beginning to come to light and the asbestos industry in Quebec tried to wave it off, but asbestos is no longer used in new buildings and is being removed from old ones. The dangers of asbestos exposure are widely acknowledged in Canada nowadays. Has been for well over a decade.

Its no worse than fiberglass dust.

Not that fibreglass dust is particularly good to have in your lungs.

Graphite/Carbon
Graphite (commonly called "carbon") fiber

...

That's for dry carbon fibre fabric, correct? What about the resin?

Each resin will have different effects since there are a quarter bajillion different resins.

Code: Select all

A common resin

1. Product and company identification
Product name EPONΠResin 862 
MSDS Number 800674 
Internal code K8124
Product Type Epoxy Resin 
Product use Industrial use. 
Manufacturer, Importer, 
Supplier 
Momentive Specialty Chemicals Inc. 
180 East Broad Street 
Columbus Ohio 43215
4information@momentive.com
Print date 18-JUN-2013 
Telephone For Emergency Medical Assistance 
Call Health & Safety Information Services, 1-866-303-6949 
For Emergency Transportation Information 
CHEMTREC US Domestic (800) 424-9300 
CHEMTREC International (703) 527-3887 
CANUTEC CA Domestic (613) 996-6666 
For additional health and safety or regulatory information, call 1 888 
443 9466 . 
2. Hazards identification
Form Liquid 
Odor slight 
OSHA/HCS status This material is considered hazardous by the OSHA Hazard 
Communication Standard (29 CFR 1910.1200). 
Emergency overview WARNING !
 CAUSES EYE AND SKIN IRRITATION. MAY CAUSE ALLERGIC SKIN 
REACTION. MAY CAUSE RESPIRATORY TRACT IRRITATION.
Potential acute health effects 
Inhalation Slightly irritating to the respiratory system. 
Ingestion Not expected to be harmful under normal conditions of use. 
Skin Irritating to skin. May cause sensitization by skin contact. 
This productis distributed by
Canada Colors and Chemicals Limited
General Inquiry:(416) 449Ͳ7750
24Hour Emergency:(416) 444Ͳ2112
CCC: Product Code: ______________________
CCC: ProductName: ______________________________________
(905) 459-1232
409008
EPON 862

[flynfrog]

curative

Code: Select all

EPIKURE��? Curing Agent 6870-W-53 (Formerly Known As Developmental Curing Agent Dispersion DPC-6870)
Version 5.1                                                                                    Print Date 07/06/2007
Revision Date 06/03/2007

1. IDENTIFICATION OF THE SUBSTANCE/PREPARATION AND OF THE COMPANY/UNDERTAKING

    Product information
                                       EPIKURE��? Curing Agent 6870-W-53 (Formerly Known As

    Trade name                    :

                                       Developmental Curing Agent Dispersion DPC-6870)



    Product code                  :    K9442



    MSDS Number                   :    2762



    Product Type                  :    Curing agent.



    Manufacturer, importer,       :    Hexion Specialty Chemicals, Inc.

    supplier                           P. O. Box 4500

                                       Houston TX 77210



    Contact person                :    hsebox@hexion.com



    Telephone                     :    General Information:

                                       (832) 486-6700



                                       Emergency telephone:

                                       CHEMTREC US Domestic (800) 424-9300

                                       CHEMTREC International (703) 527-3887





SECTION 2. HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION





    Emergency Overview



    Human health hazards              : Irritating to eyes, respiratory system and skin. May cause

                                        sensitization by skin contact.



    Safety hazards                    : No specific hazards under normal use conditions.



    Environmental hazards             : Very toxic to aquatic organisms, may cause long-term adverse

                                        effects in the aquatic environment.







SECTION 3. COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS





                      Chemical Name                                CAS-No.             Weight %



    Modified epoxy amine adduct                                Modified epoxy

                                                        1/11

Material Safety Data Sheet





EPIKURE��? Curing Agent 6870-W-53 (Formerly Known As Developmental

Curing Agent Dispersion DPC-6870)

Version 5.1                                                                                       Print Date 07/06/2007

Revision Date 06/03/2007





                                                                  amine adduct



    Water                                                           7732-18-5





     * The specific chemical identity/proportion of this component is considered trade secret

     information in accordance with 29 CFR 1910.1200.

     * See Section 16 for the Canadian HMIRC trade secret registry number.



SECTION 4. FIRST AID MEASURES



    General advice                 :   Get medical attention immediately if symptoms occur.



    Inhalation                     :   Remove to fresh air. If rapid recovery does not occur, obtain

                                       medical attention.



    Skin contact                   :   Remove contaminated clothing. Wash skin with water using

                                       soap if available. If persistent irritation occurs, obtain medical

                                       attention.



    Eye contact                    :   DO NOT DELAY. Rinse immediately with plenty of water for at

                                       least 10 minutes and seek medical advice.



    Ingestion                      :   Do not induce vomiting. Give water to drink, providing patient is

                                       conscious. If rapid recovery does not occur, obtain medical

                                       attention.



    Notes to physician



    Symptoms                       :   Dryness of the skin Irritating to eyes, respiratory system and

                                       skin.



    Treatment                      :   Treat symptomatically. Pre-existing skin or respiratory disorders

                                       may be aggravated by exposure to this product. If skin

                                       sensitisation has developed and a causal relationship has been

                                       confirmed, further exposure should not be allowed.

[flynfrog]

MSDS for all three together do not exist.

[flynfrog]

Here is a MSDS for G10 fiber glass panels so a cured laminate with resin ect.

Code: Select all

PRODUCT NAME: Acculam™ Epoxyglas (NEMA Grades G10, G11, FR4, FR5)
SECTION 1 NAME & HAZARD SUMMARY
MANUFACTURER'S NAME: Accurate Plastics, Inc.
ADDRESS: 18 Morris Place
Yonkers, New York 10705-1929
EMERGENCY PHONE NUMBER: 914-476-0700
DATE PREPARED: 11/30/01
SECTION 2 HAZARDOUS INGREDIENTS / IDENTITY INFORMATION 
No OSHA Hazardous Ingredients
Hazardous Mixtures of other Liquids, Solids or Gases % TLV ACGIH
NOT APPLICABLE
Ingredients not precisely identified are proprietary or non hazardous. All ingredients appear on the EPA
TSCA Inventory. Values are not product specifications. 
gt = greater than, lt = less than, ca = approximately
Hazard summary ( as defined by OSHA Communications Standard, 29 CFR 1910.1200 ) :
PHYSICAL HAZARDS: If material is sawed or machined, dust can be a hazard.
HEALTH HAZARDS: Dust inhalation (TLV)
PRODUCT DESCRIPTION: Product is composed of a thermoplastic polymer modified epoxy resin and
E-glass cloth. It may contain halogenated organic compounds as a flame
retardant, i.e. tetrabromobisphenol A derivatives.
SECTION 3 PHYSICAL DATA
MELTING POINT: Not determined
BOILING POINT : Not applicable
VAPOR PRESSURE ( mmhg at 20° C ) : Not applicable
VAPOR DENSITY ( air = 1 ) : Not applicable
SOLUBILITY IN WATER : Insoluble
PH : Not applicable
SPECIFIC GRAVITY (H2O=0) (typical) : 1.6
% VOLATILE BY WEIGHT : < 0.05%
APPEARANCE AND ODOR : Odorless solid 

[cerm66]

why do you think we will ever have or need carbon nanotube tires. They really haven't proven good for anything in the real world.

Cant remember the name but I heard that back then when one businessman was asked to finance the development of one of the first cars, he said that it is nonsense with no use anyway. There are many and many interesting concepts for the new generation of nano-materials so I wouldn't throw it from the table so easily. There are already businesses tailoring these nanotubes for all kinds of purposes. Lets see what they gonna come up with.

[PhillipM]

What exactly would you be trying to achieve with the carbon nanotubes in the rubber matrix?
As far as I can see it'll make the compound stiffer, less resilient and you'll reduce the thermal properties if you're using tubes (maybe not with rods). Oh, and you'll get more wear on the track itself.

I also don't agree with it being difficult to get down to the small particles....it's a tyre, it's basically continuously going through a grinding operation.

[netoperek]

I had some experience with carbon nanotubes. It's nasty at processing stage, like REALLY nasty. It sticks to everything so firmly, that it's next to impossible to get rid of it afterwards. On the other hand, once its in a compound, it stays there for good. From my experience, risk from free flying carbon nanotubes, that got out of the rubber is nonexistent.
In plastics, small carbon nanofiber additive will reduce elongation at break, which could translate to reduced graining and overall better longevity of a tire.

[Andres125sx]

Graphite/Carbon
Graphite (commonly called "carbon") fiber

Code: Select all

Contains no ingredients now known to be hazardous by OSHA. 
The normal cutting of the fiber, either [color=#FF0000]with scissors or razor blade[/color]
is suspected of generating small amounts of possibly respirable fibers.
We believe that such fiber cutting should be done in a ventilated hood
facility.

Potential Health Effects:

Eye: Dust may cause eye irritation
Skin Contact: Dust may cause skin irritation.
Skin Absorption: Not expected to be a major route of entry.
Ingestion: Not known
Inhalation: Small graphite fibers or dust are suspected as being possible inhalation hazards.
Chronic effects: A review of the literature does not show obvious long term hazard.
Carcinogenicty: No component known to be present in this product and is at > 0.1% is presently listed as a carcinogen by IARC or OSHA unless other wise noted.

Routes of exposure:
Inhalation
Permissible exposure:
15 MCCPF OSHA TWA, 10 mg/m3 ACGIH TWA (Total Dust)

CIRCLA Hazard Ratings:
Toxicity: 1 Ingnitgability: 0 Reactivity: 0 Persistence: 3

Toxicological Information:
Graphite causes benign pneumoconiosis (graphitosis). Symptoms of
pneumoconiosis from graphite exposure are dypsnea, coughing, black sputum,
bronchitis, ventricular hypertropy and impairment of pulmonary function.
X-rays will show progressive nodulation of the lungs. The theshold limit
value was set in conformity with the limit for free crystalline silica,
which may be present in graphite.

Incompatibilies:
Strong oxidizers,fluorine, peroxides

Route of entry: Inhalation, Skin or eye contact.
Target organs: Lungs, Cardiovascular system.

Symptoms:
Coughing, forceful expiration. Dyspnea, difficulty in breathing.
Black sputum, black colored expectorate. Bronchitis, inflamed bronchial
mucous membranes, pulmonary fibrosis, fibrous tissue involving lungs.
Pneumoconiosis, degenerative respiratory disease.

First Aid Measures
Eyes: In case of contact, immediately flush eyes with copious amounts of
flowing water for at least 15 minutes, retracting eye lids often.
Get medical attention immediately. Contact lenses should not be
worn when working with this product.

Skin: Wash skin thoroughly with mild soap and water. Flush with luke warm
water for 15 minutes. 

Inhalation: If large amounts of the dust are inhaled, move the exposed
person to fresh air at once. If symptoms persist contact
physician.

Ingestion: Not known

Storage and handling:
Store in the plastic bags in which the product is shipped, tightly sealed.



Exposure Controls and Personal Protection
Personal Protective Equipment (PPE):

Eye/Face Protection:
ANSI 87.1 approved safety glasses with side shield when sharpening these
rods, either with razor blade or carbon rod sharpener or plain wood file.

Skin Protection:
No particular protection needed when handling this material on an
occasional basis. For converting bulk rolls of the fiber into smaller
packs, we recommend the wearing of some kind of gloves, for example,
latex gloves.

Respiratory Protection:
For the occasional cutting of a fiber, special protection is not
needed, provided it is done in a chemical fume hood with exhaust.

Other: None known

With scissors or razor blade? There´s (almost) no dust when you cut with scissors or a razor blade. I gues that must be refering to cutting carbon clothes, not carbon fiber finished (with resin).

But when cutting a finished product with CNC, dremel or sanding carbon parts, that´s a different matter

I´m posting this because I cut carbon fiber frequently, and always use my vacuum cleaner to put it next to the cutting/sanding point so it does absorb all dust, and the vacuum cleaner at the window with the air exit facing out, as I´m not sure the filters can take the carbon dust...



What about carbon brakes? I wondered about that sometime. On a crash I agree there´s no significant carbon dust, but F1 brakes are made of carbon, suffer massive wear (the whole discs each GP), and all that dust goes directly to the driver behind. Sometime it´s even visible, and at those speeds if we can see the dust, I guess it´s not that negligible...

[netoperek]

How are Carbon/glass fiber relevant to nanotubes? They produce different results, bond in very different manner and levels and are applied in very different proportions.