Cooperative engine buy and dissection project

[Brian.G]

I had a discussion with a few guys over the past while about this, here was the general idea and I hope I will get some open minded feedback on the idea.

The general plan was to buy a fairly new engine, or at least one that is buyable, and the newest possible to own legally.

A v8 I guess taking all into account.

Seek private funding or crowd funding to buy the engine, and build a website/ around its dissection, parts discussion, manufacture, etc.
Figure the 'blog' to have say 5000-10000 images, and maybe a total of I dunno, 100,000 words +.

Website revenue would be generated from adds, I have no idea how much these could generate, but payback investor from add generation + whatever interest terms agreed. A YouTube channel could also be built containing say 100 videos to generate further revenue. A one hit investor is possibly the best idea I think for keeping everything under control.

The other option is crowd funding, lets say each bidder puts forward 400euro, it would need 100 bidders to make up the 40k. There are two ways this funding could be handled, just share the findings with these 100 bidders in the line of a large pdf, or a book, or something that could not be made viral to protect investors investment, or -

Include the 100 investors in an advertising program as with the single investor method.

Every day I see various funding programs around the globe showing up on kickstarter and indiegogo. Many of these generate 10s of thousands of pounds for a prototype product in return, and the mental positive feelings of 'being part of making it possible'

Funders could come from all walks, from colleges, to private engine firms, to fans, Engineers, companies that intend advertising with the program and so on.

What do people think?

Brian,

[ESPImperium]

Good idea, an idea and business model that is presently employed in the music, TV and film sectors of the economy.

The Finish funded Iron Sky was done this way. Budget was $7.5m and made just over $8.1m at box office.

The last and final episode of Metal Evolution was done this way - Extreme Metal. This way was chosen as the programme would have been too extreme for TV and VH1 dropped the concept.

Many many metal and rock bands who are in that area that they are good but not good enough to get signed to a major label are doing it.

Many use 10 layers of funding, id suggest that 4 or 5 is enough.

Id go for;

1000 spaces for €20 = Everyone gets a PDF email and a glossy magazine with documentation - €20,000
50 spaces for €200 = Everyone gets the magazine, and a DVD or BluRay disc with everything from the YouTube videos - €10,000
8 spaces for €2,000 = Those people get the Magazine, BluRay with names in both as Associate Producers both. Also they get some sort of 'art' piece from parts of the engine. Two full pages of advertising in the magazines. - €20,000
2 spaces of €10,000 = Executive producer, full Advertising package for web site, and 4 pages in magazine. - €20,000

That should give you €70,000 to play with, as you will need to spend at least €50,000 on the engine and then the rest on web site, magazine production and DVD/BluRay authoring.

Also bear in mind that the 10 most expensive spaces will need to see at least a 20% profit on their return before you even get any more profit. That may lead you down the road of selling the Magazine and DVD/BluRay after a year for €50 a package, that is where you would make your money.

Its expensive, and nerve wracking as a process, but you would have to take a period of time to break even financially personally, then you would have to make your money somewhere.

For the media sectors, it works for the creatives as they can sometimes stay without a job for years and it to make sense, but for this, it could just work if you spend enough time and effort on it.

[Brian.G]

ESPI - Thanks so much for your reply, initially when I re-read over the first post I thought it came across as being a tad ridiculous but, the more I think about it the more it could be made work. I have no doubt that I could pull of the documentation side of things, and making it all very worth while for investors in terms of money spent but finding those people is the tricky bit. Ive taken all your points on board and shall think about it some more in the mean time.

I look forward to other replies, good, or bad I guess.

Brian,

[timbo]

It is interesting idea. I'm sure you thought about it but for both prospects you outlined promotion is a key. You can create a blog with the stuff you posted on engine forum and wait for some time for it to generate some buzz and start from that. I think you should also consider contacting existing F1-related media (this place firstly I ) and maybe make a partnership for promotion.

[Brian.G]

It is interesting idea. I'm sure you thought about it but for both prospects you outlined promotion is a key. You can create a blog with the stuff you posted on engine forum and wait for some time for it to generate some buzz and start from that. I think you should also consider contacting existing F1-related media (this place firstly I ) and maybe make a partnership for promotion.

Timbo, with regards blog - on it, purchased some wordpress real estate last week and am joining a LOT of dots as we speak, 50% of which I have not got on here.

Partnership sounds like a good idea too, I wonder have the guys that own this place a spare 40k

Thanks for the pointers,

Brian,

[zenji]

Maybe collaborate Motor Fan magazine? They fanatical about internal dimensions and may be willing to sponsor???

[Kiril Varbanov]

Website revenue would be generated from adds, I have no idea how much these could generate

I would advise against relying on ads revenue, or at least for a startup project which is very specific. Recent trends with online ads are worrying, as some 50% of the users already have AdBlock installed and they never get to see anything.

[Steven]

@Kiril Indeed Kiril. Sadly that all F1technical is relying on at the moment
I can tell you that any kind of online adds will hardly contribute anything to your project.

@Brian.G Aside of that though, I'm willing to help out with promotion or some website stuff.
Drop me a PM if you need anything, I'll see what I can do.

Btw, where do you get your estimated cost from?

[Brian.G]

@Kiril Indeed Kiril. Sadly that all F1technical is relying on at the moment
I can tell you that any kind of online adds will hardly contribute anything to your project.

@Brian.G Aside of that though, I'm willing to help out with promotion or some website stuff.
Drop me a PM if you need anything, I'll see what I can do.

Btw, where do you get your estimated cost from?

Tomba, the cost I just searched online for F1 engine sales, the V8 I was looking at has been removed/sold, but that was ballpark figure to an ordinary joe soap off the street. See the v10 below as an example,

http://www.race-cars.com/engsales/coswo ... 6318ss.htm

I guess the engine could be race used, or indeed blown on one or more cylinders(serious block damage) for it still to be perfectly fine for the job in hand, but I still think a good engine would be better, if only for better photos of the large parts.

As for the adds deal, I know revenue is small, but I think that depends on what the adds are, and so on. I know the story with blocking, but surely all adds are pointless if you take this line thinking onboard? It must pay somehow surely - I know clicks or views are much larger on some sites but it has to be possible to swing it somehow.
Keep in mind I have no problem walking into any company and asking if they would be interested in sponsoring it. For example, virgin, ryanair, google, redbull(doubtfull),monster, and so on. Basically anyone that could be worth a shot with a bit of tormenting face to face. That is thinking on the grand scale of things but I think this could be really big if handled correctly. I also think it would provide value in 30yrs time even. How many things are online and on tv of how different things worked years ago - thats right - loads. I think this would be a valuable chunk of work/findings for reference to in years time for the same reason.

The other way to do is is to approach an engine supplier, take Renault, take one of their engines and display how great and innovative a manufacturer they are. Im not sure how comfortable they would be with such a thing, or if you would even get inside the front door to ask but again, worth a shot.

Another way is to borrow/rent an F1 engine from a seller, either race, or memorabilia based and do the project on that. The 2500 disassembled parts would later be returned for individual re-sale. One head would be cut, and possibly block so they would be scrap so to speak, but would still have province value of being part of the project.

I have a good few well established entrepreneur friends based around the globe with whom I will chat to about the idea later and see how they would go about it.

Tomba, Ill send you a pm later - thanks for the offer on help/advice. If anyone in the mean time knows of any 'cheap' or trade price F1 engines could you please let me know, or even spread the word on this idea.

In the mean time I guess a few well placed tweets about the project wouldnt go astray?

Brian,

Ps, @ Tomba, I though for a minute the thread was deleted when the topic was changed, whew...

[Kiril Varbanov]

Inline my thoughts, prefixed with KV and in bold. Sorry not to sound too optimistic, just trying to trim the unnecessary and potentially unfruitful efforts, just to save you some time.

As for the adds deal, I know revenue is small, but I think that depends on what the adds are, and so on. I know the story with blocking, but surely all adds are pointless if you take this line thinking onboard? It must pay somehow surely - I know clicks or views are much larger on some sites but it has to be possible to swing it somehow.
KV - even if the views are large, people have to click on the ads. Any circumvention attempt is heavily punished, for example by Google

Keep in mind I have no problem walking into any company and asking if they would be interested in sponsoring it. For example, virgin, ryanair, google, redbull(doubtfull),monster, and so on.
KV - Red Bull will be a hard no, as well as Monster. Speaking from experience as a media person and the type of things they are dealing with.

The other way to do is is to approach an engine supplier, take Renault, take one of their engines and display how great and innovative a manufacturer they are. Im not sure how comfortable they would be with such a thing, or if you would even get inside the front door to ask but again, worth a shot.
KV - you are likely to get a hard no as well - again, experience. F1 world is really sterile, closed and proprietary.

I have a good few well established entrepreneur friends based around the globe with whom I will chat to about the idea later and see how they would go about it.
KV - Sounds like the best thing.

Ps, @ Tomba, I though for a minute the thread was deleted when the topic was changed, whew...
KV - Stuff like these don't just happen over here - everything has a reason, so no worries.

[notApineapple]

I think getting an engine supplier onboard would be pretty important. Otherwise, this "reverse engineering" might actually be illegal to publish. With a manufacturer onboard, you could get an engine and legal peace of mind.

I think Ford would be the best bet since they are leaving F1 and have potential engines from every other decade up until now if they don't want to give out something too recent.

[CBeck113]

Best bet would be to conact an ex-F1 engine manufacturer, such as BMW, Toyota or Cosworth (upps!). They have less to loose on current technology secrets, since they are no longer (or soon to be no longer) in the circus. Sounds like a very interesting project, and I hope you can get your hands on one. Another place to ask is universities (TU Munich comes to mind for BMW), maybe a cooperation would help reduce the costs and increase the accessibility.
Good luck, I'll be following your progress!

[Brian.G]

Replies all noted - thanks once again.

I have to say at this point as mentioned an ex f1 supplier, or soon to be ex looks like the best method. I know Cosworth is still pretty much fort knox but Ill try get through to someone who might care over the coming few days.

Returning to the adds issue, perhaps to make companies feel better, a small image, or printed media could be also captured alongside the parts so that they could not be ignored of switched off - Nothing crazy, but there all the same. Perhaps even a watermark/stamp could be superimposed , but not in any way taking from the part images.

Got a price back this morning of 25k for a 2002 v10 - make not yet known. Its a little old, and a v10, but the high rpm is appealing.

What engine do people think would be most viable? Obviously the v8s are newer, and Id imagine would have more innovative details.

Does anyone have any connections to Cosworth to break the ice?

Thanks,

Brian,

[Jersey Tom]

What engine do people think would be most viable? Obviously the v8s are newer, and Id imagine would have more innovative details.

Think it's worth considering.. just what do you expect to learn from this expensive endeavor? How much has fundamental engine architecture changed in the past decade?

[Brian.G]

What engine do people think would be most viable? Obviously the v8s are newer, and Id imagine would have more innovative details.

Think it's worth considering.. just what do you expect to learn from this expensive endeavor? How much has fundamental engine architecture changed in the past decade?

Tom,

A few things off the top of my head,

Oil management,film control/tolerances, dry sump arrangements/scavenge.
Coolant handling throughout.
Block and girdle/dry sump architecture.
Bearing design, both rolling element, and multilayer.
Crank design, - lot here. Big end journal positions along full length, oiling, fillet radi, tolerances, method of end float control etc.
Torsional vibration management and method of control in respect to valve train gearing teeth - shock loads.
Oil seal design - low friction methods.
Piston ring design.
Piston cooling.
Mass of various parts.
Materials.
Surface finishes.
Surface coatings.
Being able to get an entire profile of the assembly as a whole and how each detail relates to the next.

There is a lot more obviously....

Brian,