So whatever happened to PURE?

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flyboy2160
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Re: So whatever happened to PURE?

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GitanesBlondes wrote:......I cannot believe Honda would have a design down pat and in development in less than half the time it took Mercedes, unless they had an advantage in receiving all of the plans for the engine from Gilles Simon for a price.
Do you recall the article about Honda's/Brawn's F1 car development that described how Honda continued to "play with" engineering concepts? Since we're all just speculating: It wouldn't surprise me to find out that Honda had an ongoing "just-maybe-what-would-it-take" F1 engine investigation at a low level of effort. If and when they ever got serious, the trade studies and preliminary design work would give them a head start. A wise R&D chief might even sanction a study on the split turbo shaft design. ( I used to work in aircraft advanced design. Such technology/design "what if" studies were common.)

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: So whatever happened to PURE?

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flyboy2160 wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote:......I cannot believe Honda would have a design down pat and in development in less than half the time it took Mercedes, unless they had an advantage in receiving all of the plans for the engine from Gilles Simon for a price.
Do you recall the article about Honda's/Brawn's F1 car development that described how Honda continued to "play with" engineering concepts? Since we're all just speculating: It wouldn't surprise me to find out that Honda had an ongoing "just-maybe-what-would-it-take" F1 engine investigation at a low level of effort. If and when they ever got serious, the trade studies and preliminary design work would give them a head start. A wise R&D chief might even sanction a study on the split turbo shaft design. ( I used to work in aircraft advanced design. Such technology/design "what if" studies were common.)
I guess my question about exploring engineering concepts is while it's definitely not something unique that goes on across different engineering fields, did Honda really possess the fortitude to explore things that would have to be aimed specifically at Formula 1 engine development after the way they left? Mercedes is rumored to be far more advanced than anyone else when it comes to playing around with potential concepts that may have been put to use in their engine, so I'm not sure where Honda would be on that front. Their last F1 engines were terrible, and they haven't proven to be capable of building great F1 engines since the RA121-E.
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Manoah2u
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Re: So whatever happened to PURE?

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hmmm yes but v8's never really were in honda's field, were they? 4-cyl and v6T on the other hand.....

in the meantime, the current mercedes team used to be brawn and brawn essentially was honda with a merc engine.
wouldn't honda f1 technicians still 'working with' brawn have gained some intel and knowledge on merc engines ??

Even though v8's are quite different to V6T offcourse, i wonder if it would even have mattered.

Honda does have a long history of 'hybrid 'technology, too, so, i actually wouldn't be too surprised if Honda is able to
have a good combo-pack. Ferrari for example only recently has hybrid 'experience', whilst honda has it for decades.

And if they indeed bought some pure intel, that can only help them. I'm sure honda is ready/was ready to invest into
many angles for getting as much knowledge and intel as possible on a good V6T engine for F1, or better , perhaps even
make the best.

Clearly Mercedes is leading the field by miles and miles ahead. But if there is one manufacturer that can come close it would be Honda, and i have some feeling they can have an even more reliable engine then Merc has.

but i guess we'll just have to sit this one out.
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FW17
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Re: So whatever happened to PURE?

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xpensive wrote:I suspect the ICE is a walk in the park compered to getting the energy harvesting from the MGU-H optimized, which is obviously where MHPE got it right. As fuel-flow and MGU-K power is limited, max power should not differ that much, but for how long you have the xtra 160 MGU-K power must be the key to their success.

Mclaren has had a season to benchmark against the MHPE PU, must be priceless even if their unit is not on par with Mercedes'.
Not sure that ERS is where the performance of MHP is coming from. Canada showed them running without the ERS and they were about 2-3 seconds behind a Renault. If that was 80 - 100 hp deficit in those laps it could be that the early season predictions of that V6 alone being 80 hp more powerful would be true. Added to that is an ERS which recovers significantly more energy from the turbo makes everyone else sweat.

Merc are also running with about 90 kgs of fuel where others are using 100 kgs and are still comfortably ahead.

ICE is not a walk in the park else other 2 would have been much closer.

noname
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Re: So whatever happened to PURE?

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Development of Pure's F1 engine was being done by Teos Powertrain Engineering. According to their website company is alive and seems like they're doing reasonable well.
http://www.teos-engineering.com/

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GitanesBlondes
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Sure Teos may be doing well, but it still doesn't tell what happened to all of the work that was done on the engine. This was an Autosport article from July 2012...
PURE suspends 2014 engine development after funding issues
By Jonathan Noble and Dieter Rencken

Craig Pollock's PURE company has been forced to suspend development of its engine for 2014, AUTOSPORT can reveal, on the back of an issue with its investors.

The Cologne-based operation is hoping to provide a supply of customer power units for the new 1.6-litre turbo engine V6 era, but it has been forced to cease work due to a funding issue.

Pollock, who set up the company, told AUTOSPORT on Friday that he hoped the matter would be resolved in the next few days - but that there was no possibility for it to continue its operations right now.

"The situation is very simple," he said. "The investor is US-based, but the bridging finance must come out of the EU as Swiss authorities are insisting upon that because of the tax situation.

"We expect bridging finance to be in place by the end of the month (July) and it will come from the EU."

Pollock said work had been quite advanced on the new engines, which were being assembled at facilities that were formerly used by the Toyota F1 team.

"We have been manufacturing the parts and putting engines together in Cologne, but that has ceased as of today."

PURE's technical director Gilles Simon sent an email to suppliers apologising for the situation, but said that it was vital that the team had the right funding in place if it was to continue.

In the email, a copy of which has been seen by AUTOSPORT, Simon said: "I would like to warn my colleagues working in Cologne that we are obliged to suspend our activities from August 1.

"In effect, the funds that we were expecting from our investors are not available and that will not allow us to begin this project on the correct footing.

"We hope that this situation will be resolved quickly but I have no idea when that might be possible or when we might be able to get the project up and running again. I apologise for this situation which is out of our control."

PURE was launched last year with the full backing of FIA president Jean Todt, and originally had hoped to be supply its engines for 2013. However, a delay in the introduction of the new V6s meant it had to revise its plans.
The Frenchman was a big proponent of this whole thing as you'll recall, but even he went mum on the subject.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: So whatever happened to PURE?

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When project funding ceases everything ceases. All the prototypes and development are very likely just gatherng dust. Believe me, with no funding there is noting you can do.
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xpensive
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Re: So whatever happened to PURE?

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GitanesBlondes wrote: ...
The Frenchman was a big proponent of this whole thing as you'll recall, but even he went mum on the subject.
If you look at Todt's track record, with the xception of Ferrari, he hasn't been very successful with much, has he?

Both Rallye Group B and Sportscar Group C was cancelled during his reign at Peugeot! :lol:
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Cold Fussion
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Re: So whatever happened to PURE?

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It's quite surprising that in this day an age, we're not sure where someone as high profile as Gilles Simon is employed.

Richard
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Re: So whatever happened to PURE?

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He seems to be playing tennis these days? :?

Speedweek reported in July that he's working for Honda. http://translate.google.co.uk/translate ... 6bih%3D760

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mclaren111
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Re: So whatever happened to PURE?

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He is at Honda:

"By: GMM, Journalist Posted: 2013-02-26
Feb.26 (GMM) Honda may already be working on a Formula One project for 2014.
When revealing its all-new turbo V6 'power unit' for next year near Paris on Monday, Renault's Jean-Michel Jalinier said he "definitely" expects more engine makers to enter F1 under the 2014 rules.
"That's why the number of our customers will fall in the future," he is quoted by German website motorsport-total.com, "because there are more competitors."
Honda, the Japanese marque that pulled out of F1 at the end of 2008 due to the global financial crisis, could be one such competitor.
The German-language Speed Week reports that Frenchman Gilles Simon, Ferrari's engine boss during the ultra-successful Jean Todt era, could already be working with Honda"

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: So whatever happened to PURE?

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xpensive wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote: ...
The Frenchman was a big proponent of this whole thing as you'll recall, but even he went mum on the subject.
If you look at Todt's track record, with the xception of Ferrari, he hasn't been very successful with much, has he?

Both Rallye Group B and Sportscar Group C was cancelled during his reign at Peugeot! :lol:
I think someone here at one point tried claiming that all of Todt's Ferrari success was down to what he did at Peugeot. :o
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Sasha
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Re: So whatever happened to PURE?

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Honda is working on different PU types(different Turbos and ERS)at the moment and will decide the best route by the first test next year with Gilles Simon's help.

Their partner Magneti Marreli showed a split Turbo mock-up two years ago and IHI was a partner with Mercedes with their Turbo.So Honda has the inside story of on the split-Turbo.

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Abarth
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Re: So whatever happened to PURE?

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Just to bump this thread....
I still wonder about how much of the PURE design have been carried over to Honda.

Facts Only
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Re: So whatever happened to PURE?

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Abarth wrote:Just to bump this thread....
I still wonder about how much of the PURE design have been carried over to Honda.
Word at the time was that they were doing the bare minimum to stay on the TWG panel and FIA engine supplier list so to look legitimate while they tried a woo an OEM (rumoured to be one of the Malaysian car companies) to pay the money to make it a works engine. That obviously never came to fruition so the project went nowhere after barely getting started. I also heard that there presence at the TWG meetings annoyed other members as they knew they were going nowhere.
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