FIA - Centreline Downwash Generating (CDG) Wing

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trust me. it has nothing to do with the transmission. it has to do With the huge amount of difference in each car's performance. All the cars now a day are more aero dependent, which we all know causes the whole wake behind the lead car. They should keep the wings but try to put more emphasis on mechanical grip instead of aero grip. Stepping back about 15 years of technology saying that it will increase passing is not right. Because I doubt that even they will make a lot of mistakes. look at almost any Professional racing series and they all have sequential shifting. The old way of driving is outdated. Formula One=Pinnacle of Racing. Do you seriously think the team owners and drivers back in the 90’s or even the 60s and 70s when f1 was in its so called golden era even cared what the fans got. No it took the secondary position by I need to go faster and find any way possible to do that

DaveKillens
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The types of gearbox we now see in F1 were there in a quest for performance, to cut down on shift times. But now, in a quest to slow the cars down, we now look at time and effort saving equipment. Personally, I consider gearshifting to be part of the automatic events a modern car decides on, something the modern driver doesn't need to bother about. It's just like automatic changing of the ignition timing based on RPM. People used to have to adjust manually, now we don't even think about it.
But Mankind's logic does hold up, with that many shifts per races, per driver, mistakes could happen. Yes, it would lead to drivers making mistakes, drivers having opportunities to overtake. it would probably also lead to more accidents, both minor and major. Miss a shift driving out of a corner, and you will probably get nailed from behind.....
But this leads to the general argument.. how much automation should be in a car, how much should a driver deal with during a race? Anti-lock brakes, traction control, a cruise control button for pitting, I believe don't belong on a race car. But neither do I endorse so much aero dependency, which I believe is a major factor in overtaking and passing.

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BUT YOU ALSO HAVE TO LOOK AT LE MANS THE CORVETTES, FERRARIS AND PORCHES ALL USE THE SEQUENTIAL GEARBOX BUT USE THE CLUTCH on the down change, and this is usually over a longer period of time and they usually never miss a beat so to say that it will make racing better is kind of iffy. and also you have to look at the size of the cockpit. it is very narrow barely even have enough room for the drivers feet. so going back to using the clutch during racing will make the cars bigger and i don't see how making them use the clutch and downshift is going to make that big of a difference.

Problems with F1 today
1) Aero Dependency
2)Some Drivers Don't belong there
3)The huge difference between the teams in terms of performance

The only true way to make F1 with alot more passing is make it a spec series and if they do that its not F1 anymore and i refuse to watch F1 be a spec series. I will totally agree that F3000 has really good racing. but F1 has the engineering side of it which is extremely interesting to me.... Its the battle between the drivers on the track and a battle between the engineers in the garages.

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Scuderia_Russ
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manchild wrote: Check out that Villeneuve – Arnoux clip I posted and tell me that the overtaking occurred because of different aero regulations! Please, it was only due skills of both drivers – gear shifting and braking.
I think you'll find that Arnoux had a fuel pick up problem!
"Whether you think you can or can't, either way you are right."
-Henry Ford-

manchild
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Anonymous wrote:Problems with F1 today
1) Aero Dependency
2)Some Drivers Don't belong there
3)The huge difference between the teams in terms of performance
"The huge difference between the teams in terms of performance" is nothing compared to difference in performance between Villeneuve's Ferrari and Arnoux's Renault. Aero reg. from 1992 were so different compared with aero reg. from 1998 just as aero reg. from 1998 reg. are different from 2005 reg.
The reg. changed but sequential gearboxes were untouched and all aero changes proved to be useless.

What made the difference between cars (overtaking) from 1989 or 1990 and 1992 or 1993 wasn’t the change in aero regulations – the cars from all those eras were more-less equally aero dependable and the only big change was introduction of sequential gearboxes. At first, those teams who managed to afford and make good sequential gearboxes leaped other teams. In a season or two when all teams switched to sequential gearboxes the overtaking died and we got what we can still see today – fastest cars overtaking slower cars without a chance for an excellent driver in not so fast car to match up with average driver in fastest car. In 1979 Villeneuve’s Ferrari wasn’t dominant car but fact that both cars had manual shifting that enabled him to match up and beat Arnoux.

I said that I don’t like banning of technology but a choice must be made – do we want computerized sequential gearboxes or overtaking? No changes of aero reg. will return overtaking in amount of pre- computerized sequential gearboxes era. Just wait and see.

manchild
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Scuderia_Russ wrote:I think you'll find that Arnoux had a fuel pick up problem!
Haven’t found anywhere that Arnoux had fuel pick problem, to me it seamed like typical “turbo lag”.

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i just can't see your logic manchild

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Manchild: Every statement from drivers the last couple of years that I have read all basically say the same thing: The aero of the cars unables them to follow the car infront of them thus preventing them from overtaking despite being faster! Also every year as far back as I can remember FIA has raised the front wing or done something else that makes overtaking more difficult.

Look at series with plenty of overtaking like the MotoGP for instance, MotoGP has no grip from aero(or very little) and uses sequential gearboxes if Im not misstaken.

I dont know about the cirumstances for the Villeneuve/Arnoux overtaking but really that could be down to a million other things than the manual gearbox.

I havent done a scientific study but try comparing different series and I think you will find that the common problem that prevents overtaking a slower car infront of is aero related.

With the current system the guy thats fastest starts from pole and after that he just pulls away in the race. Manual gearboxes would do nothing to prevent this from happening.

/ Fx

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Wow took the words out of my mouth person with FX signature

manchild
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Everything I’ve written I based on my own experience from watching F1 years before first sequential gearboxes appeared and after that.

Since there were no aero changes during period when sequential gearboxes appeared and having in mind that overtaking started dying simultaneously with implementation of sequential gearboxes I see no logic in blaming late ‘90s or early ‘00s aero regulations for lack of overtaking.

Mansell, Prost, Schuey, Hill, JV, Mika… they all won in seasons resembling to recent ones – they had superior cars and usually lead the races from start to finish except when positions changed due to pitstop strategy or incidents.

FW14b was the car that started a new era – era of boring running around the track and I’m saying that even though I’m Renault fan; 1992-2005 are the most boring seasons of F1 ever when it matters overtaking.

Finally, I give up… perhaps someone who shares my opinion will be able to explain what I wanted to say better than I did.

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You want more overtaking??? Ban elements with aerodynamic influence forward of the frontal suspension ie, no more front wings and allow slicks, changing tyres and wider cars. The problem is that the wing is nice space for publi and after all, cars are far more cool with wings, ain't 'em???

RH1300S
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Just because overtaking died with paddle shift gearboxes does not prove cause and effect.

Without doubt, I support your argument that gear changes should be manual and differences between drivers will shine through.

The overtaking problem seems to be very much a combination of critical aerodynamics and very short stopping distances (also created by strong aero downforce).

I think the correlation with overtaking diminishing is more likely to be that year on year teams optimised the aero and each year the cars came closer to the edge in being very sensitive to disturbance. Also, the many downforce limiting changes forced aero additions like flip ups and extra winglets, which create dirty downforce - leaving a turbulent wake that is hard to follow.

I think the FIA is moving this in the right direction - but I doubt this is the final solution.

RH1300S
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Oh....BTW :wink:

"By Jonathan Noble Monday, 24 October 2005 15:46 - Autosport


Formula One's leading figures have rubber stamped major changes to the sport at a meeting in London today, in a move that will change the face of Grand Prix racing over the next two years.

In a three-hour meeting at a Knightsbridge hotel, the Formula One Commission has given approval to a new knock-out qualifying format and the return of tyre changes for next season - as well as given preliminary approval to a radical overhaul of F1 car design for 2007.

The qualifying format will be exactly as was proposed by the FIA earlier this month, with the one-hour session broken up into three separate sessions.

There will be two 15-minute sessions at the start, where the slowest five cars in each will be eliminated from qualifying to take the rear most positions on the grid, before a final 20 minute shoot-out session to decide the first 10 places on the grid.

Tyre changes will also return to F1 after a single season where cars had to run with the same set of tyres for both qualifying and the entire race distance.

Beyond next season, the Commission also approved the concept of the radical Centreline Downwash Generating Wing car to be introduced in 2007 - which will run with slick tyres.

Grooved tyres are able to be outlawed because there will only be a single tyre manufacturer allowed in F1 after the end of next year.

The idea of the CDG car will now be worked on by F1 think tank, the Technical Working Group, where eight teams will need to approve the regulations before the end of this year for it to be introduced by the start of 2007.

FIA president Max Mosley said: "It has to get the agreement of the TWG, but everyone who has seen the car is very enthusiastic about it. So unless there is an unforeseen difficulty it will all be okay.

"This is the most radical change in F1 since the introduction of wings. It is a massive change and it will be interesting."

Not everything proposed by the FIA was voted through in the meeting, however. Plans to scrap third cars on Fridays for the bottom six teams and ban spare cars were rejected - as was the idea of outlawing tyre warming blankets. "

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GPMA will not accept this and FIA continues insisting on it than breakup will certainly occur. FIA was never designing cars and what Mossley is doing now is outrageous.

Shape of F1 car should be something developed by engineers not by motorsport ruling body.

manchild
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That previous Guest was me...

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Ok, let me put my gearbox theories aside, completely.

So, overtaking is killed by aero regulations, it is almost impossible to overtake, ok, right. Who changed the regulations from those that enabled overtaking to contemporary aero regulations that are killing it?

Tricky question, right?

FIA did it and they’ve done it talking that they want to increase popularity of F1 and increase overtaking. What happens now? FIA designs a car whose purpose it to eliminate their previous regulations only because they are almighty and able never to admit mistake or take the blame. As jaslfc said – if FIA want’s regulation that will enable more overtaking why don’t they bring back regulation from seasons where there was plenty overtaking?!

This CDG wing is complete stupidity – it is supposed to be the cure for disease that origin from common source – the FIA! They are reinventing the hot water!

First they’ve “infected” the patient with deadly disease and now they’re “curing” him with newly “invented” aspirins even though they already have antibiotics!

FIA is so vain to admit defeat of the concepts it imposed for more than a decade without any success and now it actually tries to turn back the time but without anyone noticing that what they suggest now is actually something that worked fine before they started messing with it.

Just like so many other cock-ups… for 2005 they’ve introduced one engine-two races rule, cut downforce and imposed one set of tyres per weekend in order to cut costs and slow the cars down…but what did we get?

2005 engines are at least 50hp stronger than 2004 engines, some circuit records have been broken, fastest speed ever was achieved at Monza and 3 (three) small teams have been bought by “big fishes”.

For me that is unquestionable example of bad politics and if FIA “masterminds” were employees in some company they’d end up sacked without a chance to ever get job of similar responsibility.

All the things they are now suggesting for 2007 or 2008 are actually just return to status before FIA’s messing had begun. Back to wider cars (FIA narrowed them), back to slicks (FIA banned them), back to wider pneumatics (FIA narrowed them) … It seams to me that they are trying to get away and suck-up to F1 fans by bringing back things they’ve stolen from fans just to maintain their seat at the top or the pyramid.

Bad moves FIA made increased cost and killed smaller teams. Why should teams and manufacturers tolerate such infantile behavior and waste money blindly following any decision no matter how controversial it might be? Kick in the butt is what FIA heads should get instead of immense patience and consideration of fans, teams and drivers.