whats wrong with the renault engines?

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threep
threep
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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My take on it is Renault have a systems integration problem. I am sure that the performance and efficiency of their design will be up to scratch but the reported late first running of the Renault power unit rang alarm bells when I heard it. You just can't expect to throw these things together in a couple of weeks and immediately be up to 100% performance with 100% reliability. It's called bleeding edge technology for a reason.

We don' t know what the problems are. It could be a control issue, which wouldn't be the worst problem in the world as software fixes can be comparatively quick to implement. They might have uncovered some fundamental performance issues which will require hardware redesign. They might have some manufacturing faults. They could easily have all the above. Let's just say the engineers at Viry won't have problems getting their overtime authorised for the foreseeable future!

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WhiteBlue
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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radosav wrote:From ''TheScuderia'' forum , by member Dino:
This is the worst news about Renault today,

''French engine manufacturer had informed their customer teams that the maximum running their current power train could offer was 250km''.
AND
''Simply put, there are components in the Renault engine which will fail should it be pushed beyond around 75%. On top of this, the RB10 has cooling issues for the energy recovery systems, the engine and various other associated components''

and more here
http://thejudge13.com/2014/01/30/f1-tes ... rez-day-3/
It makes no sense to me to believe that there is an issue that will need 20 weeks to sort out. The Engine itself is a fairly well known quantity and I simply do not believe that any mechanical components are giving those problems. As you would expect Red Bull went a step too far in disregarding the advise from the power train engineers in terms of cooling and packaguing requirements. At least that is what I make out of this.

Newey always pushes things to the limit and this time he has pushed Renault too far. The other customers are likely to get what Renault and Red Bull have concocted together and subsequently they share the present misery. I have been predicting this possibility for some months. IMHO it will cost Red Bull the first test and parts of the next to redesign the package and start the catch up game with Merc and Ferrari. By the time of the third race they could be on a level playing field and they will know exactly what is possible and what is not. The other teams will have less information of how you push the thermal envelope. These problems are not unsurmountable. It is necessary for Adrian IMHO to listen to his engine supplier a bit harder and allow for greater margins for once. But I expect that to happen from now on.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

monsi
monsi
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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I would find it hard to believe there is anything huge here. Renault will have done all the bench testing necessary to prove their engines. They will have run them maxed out, with all components of the overall power unit etc.etc. However perhaps they have not explored packaging them tightly and so fully uncovered all the high temperature effects of the integration, control software behaviour at the extreme end of their performance curves etc. If the problem lies in this area, then I would imagine the solution will be software, or higher temperature rated electronics, or maybe more thermal shielding. They are saying it will be all sorted by Bahrain after all, so I would also think it is likely to be systems integration related, and most likely high operating temperature related.

radosav
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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WhiteBlue wrote:
radosav wrote:From ''TheScuderia'' forum , by member Dino:
This is the worst news about Renault today,

''French engine manufacturer had informed their customer teams that the maximum running their current power train could offer was 250km''.
AND
''Simply put, there are components in the Renault engine which will fail should it be pushed beyond around 75%. On top of this, the RB10 has cooling issues for the energy recovery systems, the engine and various other associated components''

and more here
http://thejudge13.com/2014/01/30/f1-tes ... rez-day-3/
It makes no sense to me to believe that there is an issue that will need 20 weeks to sort out. The Engine itself is a fairly well known quantity and I simply do not believe that any mechanical components are giving those problems. As you would expect Red Bull went a step too far in disregarding the advise from the power train engineers in terms of cooling and packaguing requirements. At least that is what I make out of this.

Newey always pushes things to the limit and this time he has pushed Renault too far. The other customers are likely to get what Renault and Red Bull have concocted together and subsequently they share the present misery. I have been predicting this possibility for some months. IMHO it will cost Red Bull the first test and parts of the next to redesign the package and start the catch up game with Merc and Ferrari. By the time of the third race they could be on a level playing field and they will know exactly what is possible and what is not. The other teams will have less information of how you push the thermal envelope. These problems are not unsurmountable. It is necessary for Adrian IMHO to listen to his engine supplier a bit harder and allow for greater margins for once. But I expect that to happen from now on.
I think you are right! If this article was true it would mean disaster for Renault as engine manufacturer . And if it was true Newey wouldn't care much about Mclarens mushroom suspension, he would have bigger things to do! But there is still fact that Renault RS 27 was evolution of RS 26 from 2006, which was evolution from V10 engine ! The engine design philosophy was very similar! But now more variables changed and maybe Renault needs little bit more time to get everything right! If engine was designed with cooperation of Red Bull it would be shame that only Red Bull can't use it!

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FW17
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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So there is substance to the rumor that Renault wanted the first test moved to Feb

rayden
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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radosav wrote:
Juzh wrote:
radosav wrote:From ''TheScuderia'' forum , by member Dino:
This is the worst news about Renault today,

''French engine manufacturer had informed their customer teams that the maximum running their current power train could offer was 250km''.
AND
''Simply put, there are components in the Renault engine which will fail should it be pushed beyond around 75%. On top of this, the RB10 has cooling issues for the energy recovery systems, the engine and various other associated components''

and more here
http://thejudge13.com/2014/01/30/f1-tes ... rez-day-3/
This has been posted like a million times already.
just came to web site, better million times than none :D
Not really, as its a load of rubbish.

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rssh
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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I don't think it needs 20 weeks to sort out things (I am guessing 20 days instead of weeks), I think it is a component issue
e.g. The computer get overall xp rating of the rating of the slowest component (usually 5-6 components) in the machine (mostly HardDisk) so overall other systems are not optimized.
Renault clearly most components than a computer and is clearly struggling with battery and control system not communicating well with each other/ drive train, from STR video all I hear is turbo boost is stuttering and the MGU connected to it is cutting in.

321apex
321apex
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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threep wrote:My take on it is Renault have a systems integration problem. I am sure that the performance and efficiency of their design will be up to scratch but the reported late first running of the Renault power unit rang alarm bells when I heard it. You just can't expect to throw these things together in a couple of weeks and immediately be up to 100% performance with 100% reliability. It's called bleeding edge technology for a reason.

We don' t know what the problems are. It could be a control issue, which wouldn't be the worst problem in the world as software fixes can be comparatively quick to implement. They might have uncovered some fundamental performance issues which will require hardware redesign. They might have some manufacturing faults. They could easily have all the above. Let's just say the engineers at Viry won't have problems getting their overtime authorised for the foreseeable future!
Completely agree, well put. Although I appreciate the technical advancements, I agree with Ecclestone's disdain towards the powertrain revolution in F1. Too much change of too technical a nature. Would add, that for the next 10 months we are going to be lucky if no one gets hurt. Drivers during a race starts - I fear the submarining effect in rear end collisions when a car malfunctions at the grid. Somewhat akin to Riccardo Paletti crash in Canada years back. As well as crew being electricuted while working under duress on these things.

Lastly, this years contest will become World Engineering Championship and not Drivers. Grid penalties for unreliable component replacement will play a MAJOR part in this.

the user
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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321apex wrote:
MuseF1 wrote:@321apex

There are wastegates, in case of ERS problems/failure.
Please bear with me if I am wrong on this, but the way I understood the F1 engine package, the MGU-H which is attached to the turbocharger shaft is the only technical means to regulate turbo boost. That means, there are no wastegates, which traditionally bleed off exhaust gases from over driving the turbocharger. What I think you are referring to is a blow off valve in case there is a terminal boost overpressure.

In this case then, the MGU-H must get rid off it's electrical energy while it provides torsional resistance to the spinning turbo. Quite possibly this is the nature of Renault's challenge.
In one of Ted's Notebook videos (2nd day) a Renault engine guy spoke with him about the Renault power unit and mentioned that there still is a wastegate in case the MGU-H fails.

H2H
H2H
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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I pretty much agree with WhiteBlue, it does sound very hard to believe on many grounds.

And yes, they have wastegates as a back-up for security reasons. You want to get that hot exhaust out of the way if somebody doesn't work with the complicated design.

CHT
CHT
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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If Renault fail, how will their customers be compensated?

Hoping to hear what Alain Prost has to say about the problem so far.

The_Mauler
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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It´s interesting to follow the Caterham in conjuction with other Renault powered cars. It seems obvious that this team has done something that others failed to do.

My and others guess are that with Caterhams seemingly simple design it is overall better adapted to the heat produced by the Renault powertrain than others "Renault" cars.

In the case of RedBull it strengthen the opinion that the big issue are about heat management and not about the powertrain itself. Taking good care of heat management has become more important than aerodynamic perfection in this stage.

And of course Newey is now deeply concerned.

bonjon1979
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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Daliracing wrote:
Rikhart wrote:Would anyone be surprised if red bull would suddenly cease the contract with renault, and buy some other engine brand? This is probably cause for termination of contract.
Seems strange to me because of their title sponsor. i guess Infiniti would not be happy with that but i also understands Red Bull they want to defend the title. But i guess its to early to judge their could be indeed a miracle
Who's going to give them an engine? Ferrari? no chance, merc? ditto. Honda, not until 2016 at the very earliest. If Renault continues to suck then I don't think red bull will hang around much longer.

mrluke
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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bonjon1979 wrote:
Daliracing wrote:
Rikhart wrote:Would anyone be surprised if red bull would suddenly cease the contract with renault, and buy some other engine brand? This is probably cause for termination of contract.
Seems strange to me because of their title sponsor. i guess Infiniti would not be happy with that but i also understands Red Bull they want to defend the title. But i guess its to early to judge their could be indeed a miracle
Who's going to give them an engine? Ferrari? no chance, merc? ditto. Honda, not until 2016 at the very earliest. If Renault continues to suck then I don't think red bull will hang around much longer.
Cosworth.........? They have one sitting around not doing anything.

skoop
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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so caterham is doing pretty well today. i think that shows that the problems red bull and torro have are to a certain degree selfmade. in my opinion at least red bull will be doing a lot better at bahrain