whats wrong with the renault engines?

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nacho
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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Caterham is running with a lot less power than possible, told by Ericsson's manager.

Is it still Red Bull / Renault design all the customer teams will be using? Toro Ross and Caterham at least have Red Bull gearboxes and Lotus probably with an own gearbox?

NTS
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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A quote from Christian Horner: "We have had numerous Renault issues as well as chassis cooling issues, which have affected our progress." That sounds like the relationship with Renault has taken a bit of a hit? Openly criticizing them for "numerous issues" is not really a friendly thing to do to one of your main suppliers. On the other hand, Renault wanted more exposure from the sport, they certainly got it now :twisted:

321apex
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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the user wrote:
321apex wrote:
MuseF1 wrote:@321apex

There are wastegates, in case of ERS problems/failure.
In one of Ted's Notebook videos (2nd day) a Renault engine guy spoke with him about the Renault power unit and mentioned that there still is a wastegate in case the MGU-H fails.
Often people misspeak and wrongly use technical terms. Please refer to the wikipedia link, which precisely defines "wastegate" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wastegate

Then let's summarize. The new F1 engines rely on yet unproven technology of MGU-H to control boost in operational realm of the engine. It is probable, that another dormant device (blow off or pop-off valve) is also used to police the maximum boost pressure rule as well as perhaps provide a safety margin preventing a potentially damaging overboost condition. But it is not used as real time boost control.

Having said that, the MGU-H is a piece of kit yet to be developed into a relible hardware. It generates electrical power while engine is revving to it's rated 600 hp and that electricity must be ACCEPTED and stored by the electrical storage system (battery). I have a feeling that the whole new F1 concept may not be mature enough to achieve the rate of energy storage delivered by braking and turbo boost control. We are just finding out.

The_Mauler
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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nacho wrote:Caterham is running with a lot less power than possible, told by Ericsson's manager.

Is it still Red Bull / Renault design all the customer teams will be using? Toro Ross and Caterham at least have Red Bull gearboxes and Lotus probably with an own gearbox?
I´m sure Red Bull would also run with less power if only to make track time. Something else is going on!

Pup
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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WilliamsF1 wrote:So there is substance to the rumor that Renault wanted the first test moved to Feb
It's probably a good thing for them that they didn't. I can imagine that they knew of at least one of their problems prior, and thus asked for the delay. But surely they didn't foresee multiple major issues. Good for them they spotted those now and have two weeks to work out a fix.

Pup
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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WhiteBlue wrote:It makes no sense to me to believe that there is an issue that will need 20 weeks to sort out. The Engine itself is a fairly well known quantity and I simply do not believe that any mechanical components are giving those problems. As you would expect Red Bull went a step too far in disregarding the advise from the power train engineers in terms of cooling and packaguing requirements. At least that is what I make out of this.
The only thing I can imagine would be if they've discovered a manufacturing problem that requires new equipment to rectify. For example, if it is a flaw in the crankshaft and it's due to the machines that are making them. Then I could see a 20 week lead time on getting new manufacturing equipment.

Other than that, I agree. 20 weeks is an eternity in F1. I imagine that they have a good chance of clearing up most of the issues by Bahrain. They could always show up with a dud for a fix, but they've got a good chance.

321apex
321apex
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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Pup wrote:
The only thing I can imagine would be if they've discovered a manufacturing problem that requires new equipment to rectify. For example, if it is a flaw in the crankshaft and it's due to the machines that are making them. Then I could see a 20 week lead time on getting new manufacturing equipment.

Other than that, I agree. 20 weeks is an eternity in F1. I imagine that they have a good chance of clearing up most of the issues by Bahrain. They could always show up with a dud for a fix, but they've got a good chance.
Partially agree with you. I reckon the delay is due to the component lead times of the "new system suppliers" meaning the suppliers of new systems never before used in F1. This may include: both motor/generators (stators, coils, wiring webs), elements of their mechanical integration with the engine (gears, shafts), AC drives and electric converters, batteries.

At this level, the learning curve for every partner involved may be quite steep. Renault could be taking the heat for the whole package, while their 2 tier suppliers may responsible.

I would venture a bet, that not more than 10 cars will finish the first race in Melbourne.

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adrianjordan
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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321apex wrote:
Pup wrote:
The only thing I can imagine would be if they've discovered a manufacturing problem that requires new equipment to rectify. For example, if it is a flaw in the crankshaft and it's due to the machines that are making them. Then I could see a 20 week lead time on getting new manufacturing equipment.

Other than that, I agree. 20 weeks is an eternity in F1. I imagine that they have a good chance of clearing up most of the issues by Bahrain. They could always show up with a dud for a fix, but they've got a good chance.
Partially agree with you. I reckon the delay is due to the component lead times of the "new system suppliers" meaning the suppliers of new systems never before used in F1. This may include: both motor/generators (stators, coils, wiring webs), elements of their mechanical integration with the engine (gears, shafts), AC drives and electric converters, batteries.

At this level, the learning curve for every partner involved may be quite steep. Renault could be taking the heat for the whole package, while their 2 tier suppliers may responsible.

I would venture a bet, that not more than 10 cars will finish the first race in Melbourne.
Marussia to best Caterham this year then thanks to their choice of engine...
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Favourite team: McLaren

Turned down the chance to meet Vettel at Silverstone in 2007. He was a test driver at the time and I didn't think it was worth queuing!! 🤦🏻‍♂️

Mandrake
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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In all honesty, the comparison with caterham is a Bit useless. To me, armchair expert only, the car looks by no means aerodynamically refined. AT the top end of the grid the cars cannot have such gaping cooling holes if they want to be fast. We are Not looking AT the redbull being much much tighter packed than a merc or Ferrari, they look similarly well packaged. If the Renault engine cannot work in such conditions its a huge miss.....the merc runs Incredible longruns without gaping cooling holes.

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dans79
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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Until I hear otherwise, I'm going to go with it being electromagnetic shielding problem, as that's the only thing that would explain the problems some of the teams are having. Merc supplied teams got a "pre packaged" for lack of a better term power unit, and are thus all packed very similarly. As i understand it, Renault let the teams package stuff hover the wanted. This could easily explain why Caterham has no really problems other than being slow, while RB can't even make it out of the pit lane. If it is an em shielding problem, small differences in the positioning of components will make a significant impact.
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321apex
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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dans79 wrote:Until I hear otherwise, I'm going to go with it being electromagnetic shielding problem, as that's the only thing that would explain the problems some of the teams are having. Merc supplied teams got a "pre packaged" for lack of a better term power unit, and are thus all packed very similarly. As i understand it, Renault let the teams package stuff hover the wanted. This could easily explain why Caterham has no really problems other than being slow, while RB can't even make it out of the pit lane. If it is an em shielding problem, small differences in the positioning of components will make a significant impact.
Can you imagine what an "electromagnetic cloud" a swarm of F1 cars will create on the starting grid? The interference levels among them have not yet even been evaluated as to their effect on on board controls.

Pup
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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dans79 wrote:Until I hear otherwise, I'm going to go with it being electromagnetic shielding problem, as that's the only thing that would explain the problems some of the teams are having. Merc supplied teams got a "pre packaged" for lack of a better term power unit, and are thus all packed very similarly. As i understand it, Renault let the teams package stuff hover the wanted. This could easily explain why Caterham has no really problems other than being slow, while RB can't even make it out of the pit lane. If it is an em shielding problem, small differences in the positioning of components will make a significant impact.
Perhaps, but then there's this from Horner...
"Red Bull is the works partner of Renault for next year, so effectively it is the factory team and, yes, we've been very closely involved in the development of the power unit in terms of installation."
http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/12475 ... ng-in-2014

So presumably, Renault were well aware of how the engine, etc. would be packed into the RB. This might explain why RB seem a bit snippy with Renault at the moment.

JDC123
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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NTS wrote:A quote from Christian Horner: "We have had numerous Renault issues as well as chassis cooling issues, which have affected our progress." That sounds like the relationship with Renault has taken a bit of a hit? Openly criticizing them for "numerous issues" is not really a friendly thing to do to one of your main suppliers. On the other hand, Renault wanted more exposure from the sport, they certainly got it now :twisted:
Get no credit for producing the best engines for the off-throttle, blown exhausts over the past 4-5 years which is a major reason for red bulls success, and get it for all the wrong reasons now its not going red bulls way. The word team work comes to mind. Whether you're winning or not, everyone plays apart in what happens.

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dren
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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I'm guessing Renualt rushed things to meet the test. They were not prepared. Mercedes and Ferrari were.
Honda!

Pup
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Re: whats wrong with the renault engines?

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Which might explain why Boullier was convinced that Lotus wouldn't be the only team to not be at the test. He probably figured that Renault wouldn't be ready.