2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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Cam
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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tuj wrote:So here is the thing I don't understand: you want the cars to get faster and faster every year? Well that comes at a price; you will have more driver deaths every year or statistics-wise. It's a simple fact, speed kills. No matter how heavy or strong you make the monocoque, someone is going to die for your lust for speed.
I think the safety message you have purchased worked really well. My maccas anolgy might have slipped through, so here's a more expanded version. For this who still think F1 isn't one big ad.

If we consider Motorsport as being breakfast, F1 was porridge.

It was a simple thing - rolled oats. People added honey, brown sugar and cream to it and yep, made it better. It was still porridge underneath but improved.

Then, a farmer came along and said "swap to bran. It's still breakfast food and it's easier, more healthy and we make more money on it". So they did. So now we all started eating bran for breakfast. In an effort to get more farmers involved, they changed the packaging to say "contains 50% of RDI - full of natural fruit". Rather than attract more farmers and heaps of fruit, we still have only 3, banana, apple and cherry. But it's not like there's a fruit buffet in there - certainly not like the photo on the box. Ahh, because in small print (and look for yourself) it says "part of a complete breakfast". So they're not giving you everything that's shown on the box.

Sales are dropping. Idea. Call it "lite". Only problem was it was not more healthy - they just changed the colour of the bran. That's an old trick but works a treat for a while.

Meanwhile, sales are still dropping. People are going off fruity bran. Some smart person says "what about kids? They like breakfast". Sure enough they go and dump a cup of coco pops and a cup of fruit loops in the box. Now we have fruity bran with coco pops and fruit loops.

Well, I took one spoon of that and spat it out. The kids don't eat it. The health nuts don't eat it. It's not "healthy" with all that added sugar either.

But that's what we have now. Sure it's still 'breakfast', but how many enjoy eating it?

For me. I liked rolled oats. It was simple, easily explainable, healthy and value for money. We could add things to it while still keeping the original ingredients. Which is why I miss it.

F1 was porridge.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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F1's direction makes sense if you look at F1 solely as a money-making apparatus that serves to enrich a select few, all while selling a message to the public that the public gladly swallows with little question. If F1 really cared about fan input or fan enjoyment, they would open up the engine formula and let teams dictate what they want to run. Set a displacement limit and you're good to go. Increased engine efficiency comes naturally, it doesn't need to be mandated. But instead we have none of that. We just have a continued mirroring of Europe's failed social policies in F1. Egalitarianism lol...an idea for fools.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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F1 doesn't care about a small minority of people who want to recreate past glories. What's funny about all of this navel gazing is that F1 has moved on from what it was when many in here started watching it and some don't like it. Why has it moved on? Because it's now being sold in new markets. Markets that are still wowed by the speed, the glamour, the money. To some old guard fans, the speed is insufficient. Well, tough. F1 cares about selling to new people. That is what F1 is - a money making machine. It's not about "sport" or "the fans", it's about "the show", it's about money.

If you don't like where F1 is now, vote with your feet. I can promise you that F1 will not notice and will not care.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

tuj
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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I would wager that the fact that F1 hasn't had a fatality since '94 is partly the luck of the statistics, and partly changes in the rules to better protect the drivers. Think about how many 'near-miss' incidents there have been... And the fact that Massa didn't die from a spring hitting him in the face at speed, well that's a testament to the quality of the equipment.

I don't disagree with you that so-called 'lower' forms of racing can be more dangerous. But while I too want to see what an unrestricted F1 design could do on the track, I think such speeds will result in more injuries and eventually fatalities. Just MHO.

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Cam
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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Just_a_fan wrote:F1 doesn't care about a small minority of people who want to recreate past glories. What's funny about all of this navel gazing is that F1 has moved on from what it was when many in here started watching it and some don't like it. Why has it moved on? Because it's now being sold in new markets. Markets that are still wowed by the speed, the glamour, the money. To some old guard fans, the speed is insufficient. Well, tough. F1 cares about selling to new people. That is what F1 is - a money making machine. It's not about "sport" or "the fans", it's about "the show", it's about money.

If you don't like where F1 is now, vote with your feet. I can promise you that F1 will not notice and will not care.
Problem is though people are voting with their feet. Audience decline is well reported.

Emerging markets? Azerbaijan? Russia? Korea? F1 is being sold - to the highest bidder.

I realize F1 doesn't give shoots about. That's ok.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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Just_a_fan wrote:F1 doesn't care about a small minority of people who want to recreate past glories. What's funny about all of this navel gazing is that F1 has moved on from what it was when many in here started watching it and some don't like it. Why has it moved on? Because it's now being sold in new markets. Markets that are still wowed by the speed, the glamour, the money. To some old guard fans, the speed is insufficient. Well, tough. F1 cares about selling to new people. That is what F1 is - a money making machine. It's not about "sport" or "the fans", it's about "the show", it's about money.

If you don't like where F1 is now, vote with your feet. I can promise you that F1 will not notice and will not care.
F1 after the first decade of the 21st century is about highly restricted economy engines, silly tires, cars whose proportions were set with aerodynamics fully in mind only, and silly gimmicks.

I can tell you many more people than you might expect are not "wowed" by what F1 has become.

F1 is out of touch with the fanbase at large and it shows. Outside of a few select people, most fans never asked for these hybrid power units. People still want power units that mimic the old ones - various numbers of cylinders, and lots of horsepower. If the FIA announced tomorrow that the 3.5L formula was coming back, you would see a massive outpouring of joy for it.

The 2009-2014 run so far has been the worst run grand prix racing has ever seen.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

the user
the user
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Joined: 01 Sep 2012, 22:20

Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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tuj wrote:I would wager that the fact that F1 hasn't had a fatality since '94 is partly the luck of the statistics, and partly changes in the rules to better protect the drivers. Think about how many 'near-miss' incidents there have been... And the fact that Massa didn't die from a spring hitting him in the face at speed, well that's a testament to the quality of the equipment.

I don't disagree with you that so-called 'lower' forms of racing can be more dangerous. But while I too want to see what an unrestricted F1 design could do on the track, I think such speeds will result in more injuries and eventually fatalities. Just MHO.
People are forgetting that the drivers aren't the only people on the track during the race. Two marshals were killed in 2000 and 2001 by flying tyres. So when you increase speeds - you have to increase not only the safety of the drivers but also of crews in the pits, the spectators and marshals. Improving safety for everyone probably equals track owners spending money they certainly don't want to spend. So yeah, dropping lap time every year is completely unrealistic.

Personally, I like the new regulations. Something completely new is very refreshing. The world doesn't stand still and F1 will not either. F1 is not really a sport and hasn't been for decades. It's a business. That changes and adapts to the realities of contemporary world. Engine downsizing, alternate power sources, etc. That's the reality.

And I don't care if on an all out lap this year's car is two seconds slower than last year's. At least they got rid of those lame V8s and brought in technologically something more interesting. Not having cars like on rails and that actualy look like they demand some finesse is something I welcome.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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tuj wrote:So here is the thing I don't understand: you want the cars to get faster and faster every year? Well that comes at a price; you will have more driver deaths every year or statistics-wise. It's a simple fact, speed kills. No matter how heavy or strong you make the monocoque, someone is going to die for your lust for speed.
Certainly the 2014 are still heavier and slower and SAFER...but the 2014 cars have higher top speeds than 2013 cars. You know that right?

So you need to check your facts before you say speed kills.

If you said something like "higher cornering speed kills" then mmmm yearrhhh I might sorta see what you are saying... but "speed kills" it's bad! is not really saying much, when you don't bring it into context.
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stephenwh
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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Just_a_fan wrote:F1 doesn't care about a small minority of people who want to recreate past glories. What's funny about all of this navel gazing is that F1 has moved on from what it was when many in here started watching it and some don't like it. Why has it moved on? Because it's now being sold in new markets. Markets that are still wowed by the speed, the glamour, the money. To some old guard fans, the speed is insufficient. Well, tough. F1 cares about selling to new people. That is what F1 is - a money making machine. It's not about "sport" or "the fans", it's about "the show", it's about money.

If you don't like where F1 is now, vote with your feet. I can promise you that F1 will not notice and will not care.
100% agree. These strongly worded opinions about how F1 is dead and all the fans are fools or whatever are in my view from people that need to go find a new hobby, instead of spewing poisonous diatribe on websites dedicated to F1 :roll:

bhall
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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Well, if I ever become ill for any reason, I hope the people who love me - and there are a couple, I think? - fight to help me out instead of lazily standing by under the auspice that I've merely "moved on" to something else.

"He's moved on to the cancer phase of his life now, and who are we to intervene?"

:wtf:

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Cam
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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bhall wrote:Well, if I ever become ill for any reason, I hope the people who love me - and there are a couple, I think? - fight to help me out instead of lazily standing by under the auspice that I've merely "moved on" to something else.

"He's moved on to the cancer phase of his life now, and who are we to intervene?"

:wtf:
100%. Speaking for myself (and it seems I'm not alone), I'm not attacking F1 because I hate it - au contraire. I'm expressing my dislikes, outlined with a rationale, in the hope we can fix what I see as faults in the sport. How can anyone be critized for that.

Sitting back and doing nothing..... blindly accepting fate......well.....
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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Cam
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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stephenwh wrote:It is pretty straight forward, F1 had to evolve it's engine formula, because the na v8 was fast becoming irrelevant. It is going to take some time for the teams to come to grips with this massive change and for the lap times to come down, but they will, they always do. It's about the big change and the adaptation to it. It's a great time for Haas to get involved.
I moved this out of the Haas thread as it was off-topic.

Why was the V8 becoming irrelevant to F1 racing? This is the mis-conception with F1 that it 'has' be road relevant. It doesn't. Happy to take partial elements, but F1 simply does not need to draw an exacting line to consumer cars. In fact, in doing so, you end up where we are now - silent eco slow hybrids - wow, look at the crowds flock.

If you want that, there are plenty of series that cater for it exclusively - WEC, WRC, WTC even NASCAR (they pushed to make the body shape more in line with consumer car shapes - which I agree with). You want to see consumer car tech in the making, look there. You want to see why you should buy a Honda over a Toyota - look there.

F1 can (and should sit) above all that. Just make fast cars for the hell of it. They used to do that - I mean, what on earth did those 1300+ HP turbos have to do with road relevance? Nothing. You think grandma mabel was looking at that and thinking how well that must work in her Corolla? C'mon. It was all about the show, going fast - fire spitting, ear busting goodness. Monsters that tried to throw the driver out of the cockpit. beasts that took pure guts and balls to get round the track in one piece, let alone in the fastest time. I'm getting excited just thinking about seeing that!

F1 should be the 'Ali vs Foreman'. Blood, sweat, a marathon of effort with no quarter ask for nor given. The audience should wince and look away at the blows. Questions should be asked about why anyone wants to get in the ring at all. Why? Well that's when you know true driver brilliance - a title of World Champion isn't just won, it's a badge of honour, proof that surviving that and coming out on top is something truly worthy of the record books.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

stephenwh
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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The cars are actually faster on the straights, so I don't know why you are using the word slow.

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Cam
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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edit - my maths were out - if I'm wrong, let me know.
stephenwh wrote:The cars are actually faster on the straights, so I don't know why you are using the word slow.
Some words from a wise man:
bhall wrote:Some perspective.

A season of GP2 costs roughly €1,800,000 ($2,468,880). Last year, Mercedes AMG Petronas spent at least £160,000,000 ($268.656,064).

GP2 driver Stéphane Richelmi of DAMS took P1 with a time of 1:29.293 in Barcelona. Hamilton took P1 with a time of 1:25.232.

If we know €1,800,000 ($2,468,880) "buys" a 1:29.293 laptime, Mercedes essentially spent £158,200,000 ($265,633,684) to gain a little over four seconds.

:wtf:

EDIT: currencies
This basically speaks volumes. If I've done my maths right, it looks like this:
• €1,800,000 for a 1:29.293 laptime in GP2 = €23,255 (and change) per second
• £160,000,000 for a 1:25.232. laptime in F1 = €21,333,333 (and change) per second

F1 spent a staggering 917 x times the spend to make a 4.5% gain over the second tier car on a single lap. Think about that.

Now, while it's easy to say "917 x times money = 917 x performance", but we know that's not really true in reality, however, 4.5%?! Is that the best they could do? 4 effing point 5 percent? No. Of course it's not. So while you may say "the cars are actually faster on the straights", the overall ability of the car to lap a track is nowhere near what it could (neigh should) be for that kind of spend.

F1 2014 too slow? For that kind of cash, what do you think?
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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Juzh
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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stephenwh wrote:The cars are actually faster on the straights, so I don't know why you are using the word slow.
They're artificially gaining top speed as a result of increased drs slot and intentional drag shedding aero regs.