Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Roostfactor
Roostfactor
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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flmkane wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:53 am
etusch wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:09 pm
djones wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:47 pm
Mercedes have pulled a smart move with the engine change.

To now start talking about budget caps or increased penalties for engine changes is pretty hilarious, given how many engines Honda have gone through in recent years. Indeed some of the rules were relaxed with Honda in mind.
You are very close to what I am trying to say generally. So what do you think about engine freeze and keeping it alive when you see mercs are 1 sec faster ? What about doing nothing with oil burning when it is a breach of fuel flow limit in reality? Even if it were not how Fia didn't ban to keep competition close ?
It is not works for you and you miss that but I talked about new comers and rules for them to allow them catch which was not case for honda. By the way how much honda benefited from this engine change rule ?
Engine freeze with a merc advantage happened before and it was a HILARIOUS disaster.

It was in 2014. They froze the new hybrid engines before they even raced and as we recall, Merc was at best 3 sec a lap faster. Their domination hasn't ended to this day.
TRUE!

Having a manufacturer start from scratch knowing they only have (2 tokens) a season to improve their PU probably was not the most intelligent move Honda has ever made (besides my opinion they underanticipated the competition). But they have finally delivered in spades even though it's taken years to do so.
What picture does that paint for potential future engine manufacturers if they don't nail their first attempt?
Would you throw $1,000,000,000 at a project which if it's not by far the best out of the gate at something which you couldn't improve even when the deficiencies show themselves on track?
Honda knew what they were getting into and quickly learned they were outgunned but had their hands tied because of tokens so it took years to claw the performance back.
If you were an engine manufacturer would you enter now?

This question is to all, not just the op.

flmkane
flmkane
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Roostfactor wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:30 am
flmkane wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:53 am
etusch wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:09 pm

You are very close to what I am trying to say generally. So what do you think about engine freeze and keeping it alive when you see mercs are 1 sec faster ? What about doing nothing with oil burning when it is a breach of fuel flow limit in reality? Even if it were not how Fia didn't ban to keep competition close ?
It is not works for you and you miss that but I talked about new comers and rules for them to allow them catch which was not case for honda. By the way how much honda benefited from this engine change rule ?
Engine freeze with a merc advantage happened before and it was a HILARIOUS disaster.

It was in 2014. They froze the new hybrid engines before they even raced and as we recall, Merc was at best 3 sec a lap faster. Their domination hasn't ended to this day.
TRUE!

Having a manufacturer start from scratch knowing they only have (2 tokens) a season to improve their PU probably was not the most intelligent move Honda has ever made (besides my opinion they underanticipated the competition). But they have finally delivered in spades even though it's taken years to do so.
What picture does that paint for potential future engine manufacturers if they don't nail their first attempt?
Would you throw $1,000,000,000 at a project which if it's not by far the best out of the gate at something which you couldn't improve even when the deficiencies show themselves on track?
Honda knew what they were getting into and quickly learned they were outgunned but had their hands tied because of tokens so it took years to claw the performance back.
If you were an engine manufacturer would you enter now?

This question is to all, not just the op.

Simply stated, if I were a big manufacturer, I'd laugh off the FIA and talk to some friends. Possibly in the other, mega rich car companies, tire companies and in tech.

Then I'd start a rebel grand prix series with the USA as a base

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Some people are keen to say that rules were the same for everyone and anyone could come up with best pu. I was watching WTCC, WRC etc. At WRC Citroën and Peugeot cars were very fast at tarmac races. When Carlos Sains joined Citroën, in a short time, they became very good at gravel too. Wrc was using 2.0 lt i4 turbo engines same as WTCC. And when Citroën decided to enter WTCC, it was obvious that they have very good base on how to produce a powerful 2.0 i4 turbo, how to tune chassis and suspensions for tarmac and of course good brakes.
What I mean by this, when you make a rule, if you are in this business, you have an insight into who will come up with better pu. But of course there can be a surprise. SURPRİSE not equality.
In this kind of ruling; best way is looking who is where by at least waiting for testing. If you do not wait and see the situation before freezing, that means you have another plan but it is not a competition.
If fia were doing these kind of things right and allowed newcomers to catch up with more development and test options they have, there can be more pu manufacturers in the sport by now and maybe Honda were not withdraw from sport. They spoilt everything just be able to say "there is a record breaking British guy with 7 or 8 wdc" there. Maybe additional reason is money which Mercedes pour into England for developing this Mercedes branded pu which produced in England ilmor factory. Maybe they pour money for new factory too. I wonder how many real Mercedes engineer and german engineer over there. How many of them are at key positions and how many jobs and salaries come to British people there.

I remember the time I was buying F1 Racing magazines before following everything on the internet, there was an article that said "if Ferrari want to be a champion again they have to move their factory to England". Yes, someone openly said this. Then they (British journalists ) accused Ferrari of becoming more Italian.
. I don't remember his name but an engineer worked Ferrari for a short time then departed from the team by saying "I missed my county". All these kind of things are forcing Ferrari to move factory to England and pulling investment to England. This is right from point of them. But that must made in proper way and shouldn't be hand made WDC or WCC in return. Ferrari were not best at the aero part and when aero became more important they started to struggle. Who can say that rule makers were not know that ? If someone thinks this kind of rules are made in a completely fair way I can not understand him. But I accept every-time someone can have a bit advantage because of his experience his budget ( if there is not budget cap, if there is budget cap, it is another race to use same money in a proper way to become more successful but then it means investment cap for England when you think about Mercedes ) if it not intentionally made in favor of someone.
If a guy, who hate criticism or facts when it come to them or their favorite team or driver, says that, for example, Ferrari could be best instead of Mercedes when freezing started, this will not change anything. what fia did is wrong who ever come-up best and who are find out themself handcuffed from back



Image

mzso
mzso
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Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Roostfactor wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:30 am
TRUE!

Having a manufacturer start from scratch knowing they only have (2 tokens) a season to improve their PU probably was not the most intelligent move Honda has ever made (besides my opinion they underanticipated the competition). But they have finally delivered in spades even though it's taken years to do so.
What picture does that paint for potential future engine manufacturers if they don't nail their first attempt?
Would you throw $1,000,000,000 at a project which if it's not by far the best out of the gate at something which you couldn't improve even when the deficiencies show themselves on track?
Honda knew what they were getting into and quickly learned they were outgunned but had their hands tied because of tokens so it took years to claw the performance back.
If you were an engine manufacturer would you enter now?

This question is to all, not just the op.
The hell are you talking about? The token system was only present in the first year, the year in which Honda didn't compete. They could have made a thousand engine specs and tested them, meanwhile the others severely restricted in engine development. Yet they wasted that year and entered with an abysmal engine.
There were two leadership changes, and only the current leadership started to accomplish anything.

Roostfactor
Roostfactor
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Location: Texas

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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mzso wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:50 pm
Roostfactor wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:30 am
TRUE!

Having a manufacturer start from scratch knowing they only have (2 tokens) a season to improve their PU probably was not the most intelligent move Honda has ever made (besides my opinion they underanticipated the competition). But they have finally delivered in spades even though it's taken years to do so.
What picture does that paint for potential future engine manufacturers if they don't nail their first attempt?
Would you throw $1,000,000,000 at a project which if it's not by far the best out of the gate at something which you couldn't improve even when the deficiencies show themselves on track?
Honda knew what they were getting into and quickly learned they were outgunned but had their hands tied because of tokens so it took years to claw the performance back.
If you were an engine manufacturer would you enter now?

This question is to all, not just the op.
The hell are you talking about? The token system was only present in the first year, the year in which Honda didn't compete. They could have made a thousand engine specs and tested them, meanwhile the others severely restricted in engine development. Yet they wasted that year and entered with an abysmal engine.
There were two leadership changes, and only the current leadership started to accomplish anything.
You are incorrect. This reference was the first to pop up with a quick Google search.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/analy ... 0/4994430/

I agree the first two Honda bosses didn't do them any favors but the token system did hinder Honda significantly.

mzso
mzso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Roostfactor wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 7:46 pm
I agree the first two Honda bosses didn't do them any favors but the token system did hinder Honda significantly.
Hmm. I remembered that it was dropped immediately, huh.

Roostfactor
Roostfactor
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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mzso wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:20 pm
Roostfactor wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 7:46 pm
I agree the first two Honda bosses didn't do them any favors but the token system did hinder Honda significantly.
Hmm. I remembered that it was dropped immediately, huh.
No worries mate. Just wanted to make sure we kept the info accurate. A LOT has happened in Honda's most recent 7 years in F1 and I have followed them closely throughout so I remember their hardships vividly.

DR30
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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A Big congratulations to Honda F1 and all those involved and "Wazari"
An inspiration to us all.

tok-tokkie
tok-tokkie
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Image

I am pleased to see that.

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nzjrs
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Congratulations Wazari!

Thanks for being here.

Those years where we discussed the Honda engine were truly the best years of this forum.

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Wouter
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Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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nzjrs wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:37 pm
Congratulations Wazari!

Thanks for being here.

Those years where we discussed the Honda engine were truly the best years of this forum.
They were indeed! Sad they are leaving. :(
The Power of Honda!

Roostfactor
Roostfactor
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Location: Texas

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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nzjrs wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:37 pm
Congratulations Wazari!

Thanks for being here.

Those years where we discussed the Honda engine were truly the best years of this forum.
I agree.

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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If Redbull can win next year too it will be another first in sport I think.

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Big Tea
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:03 pm
If Redbull can win next year too it will be another first in sport I think.
They already have 4?
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

jellybone
jellybone
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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As Honda fans we endured some tough years, but all that just made this year that much more sweet.
Congrats to RB, Honda and of course super Max, he really was this years fastest driver, that lap in Saudi Arabia was epic (even with the crash).
It is bitter sweet though, with Honda leaving F1 just as they start winning is crushing, F1 is better with them in it. I would imagine they could continue to win with the RB/Max, and a part of me would wish Yuki to continue to grow and take that second seat, sure Max would lead that team but can you envision Tsunoda taking a championship with a Honda powered car somewhere in there too..
I hope that they can find their way back into F1 sooner than later

Thank you Honda for this journey, as a fan it's been amazing.