Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
JordanFiveOh
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ryaan2904 wrote:
Hoffman900 wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:14 am
ryaan2904 wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:13 am
This is bullshit
Elaborate, please. Tell me why it is and offer up a sound explanation backing it up. I looked up your posts, I’m not expecting much.

According to The Race, they basically ran out of gas due to miscalculation of the heat of the fuel at low fuel levels because they didn’t do any race simulations down to that level. I don’t know if that is true or not, but it is a theory.
Amus, Scarbs and Horner, all confirmed its a fuel pump issue.
Mclaren changed their fuel pumps after quali, before the race.
Fia went far enough to take off the parc-ferme restrictions on the top 10 qualifiers, so that they could inspect the fuel pumps and teams could change them (mclaren) if they wanted.
Amus noted this issue during testing. Whether they reported it then or now, I'm not sure.
Is it confirmed that anyone actually changed the pumps? You would think that it would show up on the list of parts changed under parc fermé, but it didn’t.

Is it possible they were inspecting for cracks but didn’t find any at the time?

Document explaining the inspection procedure (to do it the “normal way” under PF):

Image

Document with list of components replaced under PF:

Image
Image

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Big Tea
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:19 am
‘’It seems that they have run out of fuel’’ Not only sounds like it, it also looks like it. But in actual fact they did not run out of fuel, because if they did we would have heard/read about the stewards not being able to extract the mandatory litre of after race fuel sample. As said by MV. Fuel was not getting to the engine, and as per Horner. The problem might be fuel lift pump, fuel pod or the E10 fuel itself (fuel temerature).
Would they be subject to the fuel test if they did not finish?
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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HPD
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ryaan2904
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Bill wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:04 am
italian cars have a reputation for poor reliability they cost Rbr 2&4 the glass is also half empty why should i relax the part is poor across entire grid not just isolated to RBr
Cry in the team thread please
CFD Eyes of Sauron

kevpasca
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:14 am
ryaan2904 wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:13 am
Hoffman900 wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:04 am
I would have a real hard time believing the resin in the lift pump would break down with 5% more ethanol content. Everything in the US is E10 since they banned MTBE as an oxygenator and the fuel issues people had early on were due to it cleaning gunk out of the tank, not plastics. If they switched to E85 that would be a different story.

Heating of the fuel could be an issue, especially depending on packaging.

Vibrations inherent to the Honda could also cause the fuel lines / pumps / etc to go into resonance. This is far fetched but you can observe this with side draft carburetor engines. If you are brave, stand next to the engine on the dyno and you won’t be able to grab the float bowl. The carburetor bowl will resonate at such frequency at certain bad harmonics that the fuel foams. The lift pump pressure is probably nothing wild. I forget what the injector pressure has to be. I recently learned it’s 5000psi in DTM. I would have to think about this a little harder before I put any stock as an actual failure mode.

I am not shocked to learn teams in general struggled some with the switch, especially if they, like Honda, are using a hybrid HCCI / TJI combustion concept. I believe Honda only made this combustion concept work reliably by having a fuel developed especially for it. Otherwise it was inconsistent and more a happy accident than anything going by Wazari’s posts.

It is interesting that the RBR cars complained of decreasing power prior.
If fuel was falling off, then the engine would be derating itself, but this absolutely would have showed up along pit wall along with fuel pressure (I have no doubt that is sent to pit wall as well) and I believe would have resulted in a grenaded IC much more quickly.

Gasly’s failure was sudden, so that looks to be an entirely different issue and if that is the cam driven injector pump, that is a Honda part / design (which goes back to my one hypothesis about resonance) as that is directly bolted to the engine and not soft mounted like fuel lines should be.
This is bullshit
Elaborate, please. Tell me why it is and offer up a sound explanation backing it up.

According to The Race, they basically ran out of gas due to miscalculation of the heat of the fuel at low fuel levels because they didn’t do any race simulations down to that level. I don’t know if that is true or not, but it is a theory.
The gas pump, specifically the low-pressure pump that brings the gas from the tank to the injectors, was discovered as the source of the engine's poor performance. A situation like this clearly had a negative impact on the engine's ability to perform at its best, which is why the team initially modified the engine map in hopes of at least getting around the issue.
With a lower engine map, the hybrid part of the power unit must work harder to provide the same output. As a result, the battery drains significantly faster than before. To ensure that energy is constantly available to the driver, greater SoC (state of charge) settings are required, which instruct the ERS to collect as much energy as possible during braking. This is why VER & PER cars flashed under braking because they were recharging their batteries.
The gas pump fails at the point where the pump no longer provides fuel to the car. Max saw his car switch off in the back straight, while Perez's car just retired in the middle of the first corner, locking the rear, making the car spin, taking him out of the race.
.
Red Bull estimated that they were three-tenths of a second slower than Ferrari. Ferrari drove with more downforce because they can afford it with their engine power. Red Bull paid with smaller wings and more tire degradation. Ferrari has the strongest PU now, they have more power than last year despite the switch to E10 fuel. Both Honda & Mercedes lost performance compared to last year.
.
Last time Honda considerably the best engine in season, it so sad that Ferrari jumped Honda as the best engine.
.
Image
https://ibb.co/z2ymXMs
(Quoted from various sources)

holeindalip
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:04 am
I would have a real hard time believing the resin in the lift pump would break down with 5% more ethanol content. Everything in the US is E10 since they banned MTBE as an oxygenator and the fuel issues people had early on were due to it cleaning gunk out of the tank, not plastics. If they switched to E85 that would be a different story.

Heating of the fuel could be an issue, especially depending on packaging.

Vibrations inherent to the Honda could also cause the fuel lines / pumps / etc to go into resonance. This is far fetched but you can observe this with side draft carburetor engines. If you are brave, stand next to the engine on the dyno and you won’t be able to grab the float bowl. The carburetor bowl will resonate at such frequency at certain bad harmonics that the fuel foams. The lift pump pressure is probably nothing wild. I forget what the injector pressure has to be. I recently learned it’s 5000psi in DTM. I would have to think about this a little harder before I put any stock as an actual failure mode.

I am not shocked to learn teams in general struggled some with the switch, especially if they, like Honda, are using a hybrid HCCI / TJI combustion concept. I believe Honda only made this combustion concept work reliably by having a fuel developed especially for it. Otherwise it was inconsistent and more a happy accident than anything going by Wazari’s posts.

It is interesting that the RBR cars complained of decreasing power prior.
If fuel was falling off, then the engine would be derating itself, but this absolutely would have showed up along pit wall along with fuel pressure (I have no doubt that is sent to pit wall as well) and I believe would have resulted in a grenaded IC much more quickly.

Gasly’s failure was sudden, so that looks to be an entirely different issue and if that is the cam driven injector pump, that is a Honda part / design (which goes back to my one hypothesis about resonance) as that is directly bolted to the engine and not soft mounted like fuel lines should be.
I just want to confirm that it’s 500bar 7,250psi max on the hp fuel pump….

mclaren_mircea
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Good news for Max and the team. They already know the problem but they wont reveal to the public. They are working flat out to fix it for Saudi Arabia. It is also a positive thing if the problem is not the standard fuel pump because we could have lots of DNF across all the teams in the coming races.

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/106770/r ... cause.html
Last edited by mclaren_mircea on Mon Mar 21, 2022 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NL_Fer
NL_Fer
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:04 am
I would have a real hard time believing the resin in the lift pump would break down with 5% more ethanol content. Everything in the US is E10 since they banned MTBE as an oxygenator and the fuel issues people had early on were due to it cleaning gunk out of the tank, not plastics. If they switched to E85 that would be a different story.
It is actually 10% ethanol mandatory instead of 5% bio-component, which didn’t have to be ethanol. But it could be any biological sourced component, which could improve combustion or energy content of the fuel.

So they lost 5% gasoline AND 5% fuel enhancing component, replaced with ethanol.

NL_Fer
NL_Fer
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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So we have engine breaking issue reported by Verstappen.
Flashing rear lights after the restart
Lack of power
Checo locked the rears and black display

I still feel the problem is CE or electronics related, instead of fuel.

ziggy
ziggy
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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That must be a translation error or simply bullshit. The electronic module on the pump is probably coated with epoxy resin as many other automotive electronic components. That is done primary to counter vibrations and heat issues. Solder tends to break when exposed to vibrations or it can melt do to high temperature, hence the epoxy to hold the silicon in place. However there is no way that fuel could damage this epoxy. Heat and vibrations yes, but not fuel. You cant remove this crap even with corosive chemicals, let alone with fuel. Electronic boards can be submerged in mineral oil or fuel and still functioning without problems, as long as the liquid is not conductive. So there must be another explanation as to why the epoxy cracked (if it cracked in the first place).

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Big Tea
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ziggy wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:21 pm
That must be a translation error or simply bullshit. The electronic module on the pump is probably coated with epoxy resin as many other automotive electronic components. That is done primary to counter vibrations and heat issues. Solder tends to break when exposed to vibrations or it can melt do to high temperature, hence the epoxy to hold the silicon in place. However there is no way that fuel could damage this epoxy. Heat and vibrations yes, but not fuel. You cant remove this crap even with corosive chemicals, let alone with fuel. Electronic boards can be submerged in mineral oil or fuel and still functioning without problems, as long as the liquid is not conductive. So there must be another explanation as to why the epoxy cracked (if it cracked in the first place).
Attachments have to pass to the unit, so it may not be the actual compound the shell is produced from. Either the 'wire' is passed straight through the bonding, or there is a grommet. different expansion rates here can be a problem as can seepage due to pressure difference inside and outside the unit which can vary with temperature directly, or the fume off from the fuel if not vented. The encasement can be completely intact but still allow ingress.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

ziggy
ziggy
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:52 pm
ziggy wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:21 pm
That must be a translation error or simply bullshit. The electronic module on the pump is probably coated with epoxy resin as many other automotive electronic components. That is done primary to counter vibrations and heat issues. Solder tends to break when exposed to vibrations or it can melt do to high temperature, hence the epoxy to hold the silicon in place. However there is no way that fuel could damage this epoxy. Heat and vibrations yes, but not fuel. You cant remove this crap even with corosive chemicals, let alone with fuel. Electronic boards can be submerged in mineral oil or fuel and still functioning without problems, as long as the liquid is not conductive. So there must be another explanation as to why the epoxy cracked (if it cracked in the first place).
Attachments have to pass to the unit, so it may not be the actual compound the shell is produced from. Either the 'wire' is passed straight through the bonding, or there is a grommet. different expansion rates here can be a problem as can seepage due to pressure difference inside and outside the unit which can vary with temperature directly, or the fume off from the fuel if not vented. The encasement can be completely intact but still allow ingress.


I really doubt it. First off, we are talking about the low pressure pump. Second, the pump is in the tank. I don't know the exact temperature in the tank, but definitely it's to low to damage any electronics, otherwise the fuel would be boiling. Third: we know by now the pumps were checked after qualy and I really doubt it would fail after one single gp. Maybe after few gp's but not after one. And that on both cars.

EDIT: I just read it wasn't the fuel pump that stopped both cars so this was pure speculation.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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‘’Just read that it was not the fuel pump that stopped. So that was just speculation’’. Yes. Speculation went pedal-to-the-floor and straight into high gear. Ranging from no-fuel-in-tank to high pressure pump to low pressure pump with a virgin sort of note that said item is ‘made in Italy’. Although as is usually the case such speculation always takes-off at high speed on discussion boards, experienced followers knows instantly and exactly that these speculations are always kicked-off/started/pushed-out by the usual half-a-dozen established self appointed media anchors. These speculations is what ‘most’ of the F1 media thrives on as they produce klicks that counts most for some of the F1 media.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 2:25 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:19 am
‘’It seems that they have run out of fuel’’ Not only sounds like it, it also looks like it. But in actual fact they did not run out of fuel, because if they did we would have heard/read about the stewards not being able to extract the mandatory litre of after race fuel sample. As said by MV. Fuel was not getting to the engine, and as per Horner. The problem might be fuel lift pump, fuel pod or the E10 fuel itself (fuel temerature).
Would they be subject to the fuel test if they did not finish?
It is mandatory that at end of race 1 litre of fuel sample is taken from every car. In Aug 8-2021 Vettel was kicked off podium after his crew was not able to extract 1 litre of fuel as a sample from his car after the race. Actually they were only able to extract 0.300 litre as a sample.

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Airshifter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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JordanFiveOh wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 2:18 pm
ryaan2904 wrote:
Hoffman900 wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:14 am


Elaborate, please. Tell me why it is and offer up a sound explanation backing it up. I looked up your posts, I’m not expecting much.

According to The Race, they basically ran out of gas due to miscalculation of the heat of the fuel at low fuel levels because they didn’t do any race simulations down to that level. I don’t know if that is true or not, but it is a theory.
Amus, Scarbs and Horner, all confirmed its a fuel pump issue.
Mclaren changed their fuel pumps after quali, before the race.
Fia went far enough to take off the parc-ferme restrictions on the top 10 qualifiers, so that they could inspect the fuel pumps and teams could change them (mclaren) if they wanted.
Amus noted this issue during testing. Whether they reported it then or now, I'm not sure.
Is it confirmed that anyone actually changed the pumps? You would think that it would show up on the list of parts changed under parc fermé, but it didn’t.

Is it possible they were inspecting for cracks but didn’t find any at the time?

Document explaining the inspection procedure (to do it the “normal way” under PF):

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202203 ... a53161.jpg

Document with list of components replaced under PF:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202203 ... 47d4b6.png
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202203 ... e61495.png
Thanks for actually posting something that can be substantiated as fact rather than speculation. The rampant speculation on the possible reasons seems to trickle down quickly these days, even through some of the "expert" opinions on social media and such.

Even quotes from RB aren't consistent in the news articles and social media claims. And with your finding, I would have to think if they changed parc ferme regs to allow for inspection that any changes would have been reported. Otherwise they would not properly reporting a potential problem created by a standard part.