Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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Big Tea wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:53 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:12 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:47 am



Maybe Scarbs has better authority and knowledge than me and you believe him when he said it`s a true possibility that the new fuel had affected the plastics which encapsulates fuel pump electronics:



http://postimg.cc/8F0rVxqf
image post
It wasn't E10 degrading anything. They confirmed its low suction pressure. Very likely way below NPSHR required for the pump.
But if the E10 was more volatile would it not be more prone to 'producing' vapor locks?
Yup. Covered that with when i said NPSHR.

He was suggesting that it was a material compatibility problem of the pump, which is extremely unlikely. It would be very shocking even for an undergrad engineering project.

Pumping E10 fuel or any other liquid you're gonna use the material compatibility charts for that plastic or resin. There are some really exhaustive material compatibipity charts you would be surprised.

The other thing is the pumps would have been tested in the liquid under different concentrations and temperatures, and even inside more aggressive fluids.

It would be extremely unlikley for this sort of part.
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DinkLv
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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DinkLv wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:32 pm
Size and layout comparison of Honda's MGU-H Assembly (2015~2020 has been scaled to match the size of 2021):

https://i.imgur.com/cseH9hB.png
Detailed translation of the MGU-H and MGU-K part with my limited knowledge of Japanese :P Google Translate + Manual Optimization. Enjoy! The next bunch will be P66-69 - Design of compressor and turbocharger, and P84-P91 - Energy Management Strategies.

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hardingfv32
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:53 pm
One will have a very hard time trying to find a more sophisticated and complicated fuel venting system inside a fuel thank than that used in F1.
Maybe... but what you go on to discuss is the pump or pressure part of the fuel system.

What are the details of the sophisticated fuel cell vent system? Why does it have to be complicated?

Brian

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vorticism
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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They need to through that MGUH and the rest of the power unit into a first gen NSX. The compressor size change is stunning. How did they get the initial version so wrong? Bad math, or I seem to recall McLaren was also blamed at the time for requesting the smallest engine possible.

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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hardingfv32 wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:53 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:53 pm
One will have a very hard time trying to find a more sophisticated and complicated fuel venting system inside a fuel thank than that used in F1.
Maybe... but what you go on to discuss is the pump or pressure part of the fuel system.

What are the details of the sophisticated fuel cell vent system? Why does it have to be complicated?

Brian
The complication/sophistication of the F1 fuel tank venting system apart from the internal system (various compartments aimed at catching fuel sloshing about and directing it all to one single compartment, and from there to collector, which have its own venting system). Starts by refuelling the car itself. The amount of fuel that goes into the tank, must come out of the tank in air. Volume in volume out. Apart from the internal venting’s. To get fuel out of the tank air needs to be let into the tank. Air needs to be allowed into the tank to stop pumps from creating a vacuum in the volume of the tank. Preferred way is to have the tank volume under a very small pressure through a simple feed from a high pressure area through a one way valve. Apart from all of the above, the collector itself which is inside the tank, and itself vents inside the tank is kept full of fuel under a pressure of 1 bar by the lift pumps as long as there is fuel in the tank.

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atanatizante
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:16 am
...
Pumping E10 fuel or any other liquid you're gonna use the material compatibility charts for that plastic or resin. There are some really exhaustive material compatibility charts you would be surprised by.
...
I think you missed the fact that in order to mainly compensate de power loss for the rule to have 10% E10 in the total allowed volume of 110 litres per race, the petroleum companies had to design a new fuel chemical formulation for 2022, therefore there are no "compatibility charts" or any data and they need to test it ...

...
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:16 am

The other thing is the pumps would have been tested in the liquid under different concentrations and temperatures, and even inside more aggressive fluids.

It would be extremely unlikely for this sort of part.
Yes, I agree with you that they have tested the new fuel combination but I ask you what`s so hard to understand that they couldn't cover all the race issue scenarios, particularly there were at least 3 factors involved in the Bahrein race...
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saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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RB – A vacuum prevented the pumps from drawing fuel. If the tank is not vented a vacuum will be created inside the tank volume and the lift pumps will not lift fuel. Both RB cars had many laps of the race behind them with no fuel problems before they stopped. If one goes by what RB said they found, it can only mean that fuel tank volume pressurization had stopped no more than one minute before their engines stopped.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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atanatizante wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:29 am
.. in order to mainly compensate de power loss for the rule to have 10% E10 in the total allowed volume of 110 litres per race, the petroleum companies had to design a new fuel chemical formulation for 2022 ...
there is no total allowed volume of 110 litres

there is a total allowed mass of 110 kg

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Red Bull RB18

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atanatizante wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:29 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:16 am
...
Pumping E10 fuel or any other liquid you're gonna use the material compatibility charts for that plastic or resin. There are some really exhaustive material compatibility charts you would be surprised by.
...
I think you missed the fact that in order to mainly compensate de power loss for the rule to have 10% E10 in the total allowed volume of 110 litres per race, the petroleum companies had to design a new fuel chemical formulation for 2022, therefore there are no "compatibility charts" or any data and they need to test it ...

...
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:16 am

The other thing is the pumps would have been tested in the liquid under different concentrations and temperatures, and even inside more aggressive fluids.

It would be extremely unlikely for this sort of part.
Yes, I agree with you that they have tested the new fuel combination but I ask you what`s so hard to understand that they couldn't cover all the race issue scenarios, particularly there were at least 3 factors involved in the Bahrein race...
All I'm saying is that as a practical engineer this sort of mistake is extremely unlikely. For material slection, going overboard is normally what is done when you have a very expensive assett. For example when in power generation we had titanium cooling plates for the heat exchangers (sea water) and duplex stainless steel for the screens. It's only sea water right? Yeah.. But because the assets being operated is so expensive, and so costly, and time consuming to repair you don't want any stoppages from these equipment.

The same with the fuel pump materials. The engineers would test the pump in a more aggressive condition than E10 with whateve added compounds inside it for thousands of hourse before they sell it to an F1 team.

I just can't see material selection taking them by surprise that's all. Extremely unlikely.
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PhillipM
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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There is no way E10 is the issue with materials compatibility, there's a huge amount of research and compatability info out there for things like that, for any condition, temperature, stress level, etc, imaginable, like Plat says.

People clutching at straws there just because it's the thing that's changed. F1 had pumps capable of dealing with ethanol 50-60 years ago no problem.

TNTHead
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PhillipM wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:49 pm
There is no way E10 is the issue with materials compatibility, there's a huge amount of research and compatability info out there for things like that, for any condition, temperature, stress level, etc, imaginable, like Plat says.

People clutching at straws there just because it's the thing that's changed. F1 had pumps capable of dealing with ethanol 50-60 years ago no problem.
And let's not forget Indy car is running E85 and before 2018 it was E98, so plenty of real life experience in race cars with fuel pumps and pumping materials suitable for ethanol containing fuels.

Hoffman900
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PhillipM wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:49 pm
There is no way E10 is the issue with materials compatibility, there's a huge amount of research and compatability info out there for things like that, for any condition, temperature, stress level, etc, imaginable, like Plat says.

People clutching at straws there just because it's the thing that's changed. F1 had pumps capable of dealing with ethanol 50-60 years ago no problem.
This.

E10 has been used as pump gasoline in the USA for almost two decades now (oxygenator since they banned MTBE).

Indy uses ethanol, as pointed out, and always ran methanol before that, as do WoO, USAC, and other Sprint Cars. Lots of drag cars as well. This isn’t a problem in any of them (other than you have to drain the tank constantly and fog the cylinders).

This definitely isn’t the issue.

hardingfv32
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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You are assuming that the added ethanol has not opened up some new chemical combination.

The ethanol/methanol used in the US series is always single sourced at events.

Brian

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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vorticism wrote:
Tue Mar 29, 2022 8:48 pm
(...) The compressor size change is stunning. How did they get the initial version so wrong? Bad math, or I seem to recall McLaren was also blamed at the time for requesting the smallest engine possible.
McLaren size-zero concept was partially to blame.
Somewhere in the text is info at the beginning they build turbo around production aero.
And boost level in 2015 was way different than what is being used now, as combustion has changed a lot. This affects sizing.

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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‘’There is no way the E10 was the issue’’. Fully agree. All other cars used E10 and all the same stuff in the system RBR used. And Eight days after their stoppage RBR used the same E10 again plus all the same stuff in the system, even if all of the stuff has been replaced. For some reason or other, both RBR cars ran out of breathing inside the fuel tank volume at very near the same time in the race.